rocketraman

Great!

I am running "All Off" from the "Network/My Lighting" page, which I believe includes everything the ISY knows about. Here is the Event Log when running the All Off command: Wed 03/03/2010 04:31:43 PM : [ E 28 C3 1] ST 0 Wed 03/03/2010 04:31:43 PM : [ E 4D 17 1] ST 0 Wed 03/03/2010 04:31:43 PM : [ E 21 A7 1] ST 0 Wed 03/03/2010 04:31:43 PM : [ E 42 1B 1] ST 0 Wed 03/03/2010 04:31:43 PM : [ E 41 F9 1] ST 0 Wed 03/03/2010 04:31:43 PM : [ E 2A 90 1] ST 0 Wed 03/03/2010 04:31:43 PM : [ E 29 BC 1] ST 0 Note that one of the ST-0 commands are sent to the sub-buttons, only to the main button 1. The sub-button lights have indeed turned off at this point, but the ISY thinks they are on, for example on KPL E 28 C3. Now doing an explicit query on the KPL with the out of date status corrects the status of button 5 (labeled "C"): Wed 03/03/2010 04:34:36 PM : [ E 28 C3 1] ST 0 Wed 03/03/2010 04:34:36 PM : [ E 28 C3 1] OL 255 Wed 03/03/2010 04:34:36 PM : [ E 28 C3 1] RR 28 Wed 03/03/2010 04:34:37 PM : [ E 28 C3 5] ST 0 Note that turning off the scene physically via a button rather than via the ISY does set the status in the ISY correctly. It's possible -- lets ignore this for now and if it happens again I'll repost on it. Thanks a lot for your invaluable assistance. Cheers, Raman

I think you've misunderstood -- I'm well aware of the limitation. My point was that somehow the scene was set that way, even though one shouldn't be able to do it. Again, I think you've misunderstood -- in this case, I want button 3 to control the button 1 load and it does that just fine. Great tip... I'll keep it in mind for the future. However, this isn't the problem here -- all links are working exactly the way they should be. The problem was/is the ISY status not matching the actual loads/buttons.

Ok, all that makes sense -- thanks for the info. I was a bit confused about the numbering shown in the event viewer -- specifically about the "missing" #2 on my 6-btn KPLs, and you cleared that up nicely. In my case, the button labeled "A" on my 6 button KPLs is button 3, and is not connected to the load. So I think my original question about how that button was somehow set to turn off the load locally still stands -- I haven't done any manual local programming since getting my ISY. When explicitly trying that in the ISY, it pops up the expected message saying "KeypadLinc local sub-buttons cannot turn off the load! You may want to choose a very low On Level instead" -- so I don't know how it got set to 0. And it was indeed set to zero -- not 1% -- I specifically checked.

No in this case it button A is not connected to the load -- it's a 6-btn KPL, with one big On button at the top connected to load, 4 buttons not connected to the load lettered A-D, and one big Off button at the bottom. I think you're thinking of an 8-btn KPL, which has a "Main" button and then more buttons B-H. Cheers, Raman

Ok. I think I figured out (sort of) what is happening here. The KPL in question is configured in a 3-way manner with another dimmer via a 3-way scene. Somehow the scene triggered by button A had gotten set such that the KPL buttons were turning the local KPL load off (even though I thought that was impossible, so its another mystery as to how that happened...). However, it seems that the load was still turning on the way I expected due to the 3-way configuration with the second controller. In this situation, the ISY doesn't seem to know the KPL is On, even though it is. Here is the event log -- the KPL is address E.28.C3 and the 3-way is dimmer E.4D.17: Sat 02/27/2010 02:34:32 AM : [ E 28 C3 3] DON 0 Sat 02/27/2010 02:34:33 AM : [ E 28 C3 3] ST 255 Sat 02/27/2010 02:34:33 AM : [ E 4D 17 1] ST 255 Sat 02/27/2010 02:34:33 AM : [ E 21 A7 1] ST 255 Sat 02/27/2010 02:34:33 AM : [ E 2A 90 3] ST 255 Sat 02/27/2010 02:34:33 AM : [ E 29 BC 3] ST 255 Once I reconfigured the scene properly the problem went away and the status was ok. But something was definitely screwy -- 1) how did the scene get set to set the local KPL load to level 0 if the ISY doesn't allow that, and 2) if the light is turning on (for whatever reason) the status in ISY should be on, but it wasn't. Here is the event log from the On (again, KPL button A, with the scene fixed as described above): Sat 02/27/2010 11:05:46 AM : [ E 28 C3 3] DON 0 Sat 02/27/2010 11:05:47 AM : [ E 28 C3 1] ST 255 Sat 02/27/2010 11:05:47 AM : [ E 28 C3 3] ST 255 Sat 02/27/2010 11:05:47 AM : [ E 4D 17 1] ST 255 Sat 02/27/2010 11:05:47 AM : [ E 21 A7 1] ST 255 Sat 02/27/2010 11:05:47 AM : [ E 2A 90 3] ST 255 Sat 02/27/2010 11:05:47 AM : [ E 29 BC 3] ST 255 Here is the All-Off log: Sat 02/27/2010 11:07:47 AM : [ E 28 C3 1] ST 0 Sat 02/27/2010 11:07:47 AM : [ E 4D 17 1] ST 0 Sat 02/27/2010 11:07:47 AM : [ E 21 A7 1] ST 0 I note there is no explicit command to the button E.28.C3.3 even though the button is physically off after the All-Off. The ISY just thinks it is still On until the Query is run. I also note that when I turn the button off physically (at the switch) rather than via the ISY, all statuses are fine -- note the explicit ST-0 to E.28.C3.3, so this appears to be more of an ISY issue: Sat 02/27/2010 11:20:51 AM : [ E 28 C3 3] DOF 0 Sat 02/27/2010 11:20:51 AM : [ E 28 C3 1] ST 0 Sat 02/27/2010 11:20:51 AM : [ E 28 C3 3] ST 0 Sat 02/27/2010 11:20:51 AM : [ E 4D 17 1] ST 0 Sat 02/27/2010 11:20:51 AM : [ E 21 A7 1] ST 0 Sat 02/27/2010 11:20:51 AM : [ E 2A 90 3] ST 0 Sat 02/27/2010 11:20:51 AM : [ E 29 BC 3] ST 0 Cheers, Raman

I agree, logically it makes no sense and I don't know why Smarthome didn't consider this. I've found this program-based workaround seems to work: If Control 'Main Entry, 6btn A' is switched On Or Control 'Garage Entry, 6btn A' is switched On Or Control 'Stair, 2-1, 8btn Main' is switched On Or Control 'Stair, 3-2, 6btn A' is switched On Then Set Scene 'Stairs, Follow A' Fast Off Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') The "Stairs, Follow A" scene consists of the B and C buttons from each of the four KPLs (responders only). Repeat similarly with one program and one Follow scene each for the B and C buttons. I also created one of these programs for each kpl to work-around the "local off" issue (another annoying Smarthome limitation): If Status 'Stair, 3-2, 6btn' is 1% Then Set 'Stair, 3-2, 6btn' Fast Off Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') With the various programs and scenes above, I get a lot of button light flashing but things generally seem to work. Note that I first tried to use Status conditions. I had a bunch of problems with that approach: 1) The ISY doesn't seem to detect changes in status to a local KPL, unless an explicit Query is done. For example, I select button A in a KPL to activate a scene. One of the responders of that scene is the KPL main On button to control the load. In this situation, the KPL status in the ISY does not show On -- presumably because it was done locally within the KPL and therefore no On signal was sent out on the Insteon network (yet another bad design by Smarthome?). And thus the appropriate ISY programs do not trigger. 2) The ISY doesn't always get button status updates without an explicit query -- for example, turn on a physical button, then hit the "All Off" command in the ISY My Lighting page. On my system, while the loads change Status to Off, the button state remains On until an explicit "Query" is done. So the button state also seems to be unreliable. I don't know if this is an Insteon or ISY problem. 3) Another solution would have been to create a program to turn off buttons automatically if any loads change in the scene it is a controller for. This would also have the advantage of turning off the button if some lights were managed manually, outside of the keypads. Again, currently impossible to achieve -- there seems to be no easy way to detect changes in scenes i.e. the ISY/Insteon does not have any scene status -- even logically simple programs like "if devices in scene X do not match scene settings, then do xyz" are impossible. This goes back to this thread, and many others as well: http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=1703 Regardless, I need to live with this for a few days to see how it works out but I think I've hacked it in.

That is disappointing... I've tried doing this before with programs (using follow scenes) and always ran into various problems with buttons getting out of sync and button lights flashing for no apparent reason. I guess I'll give it another shot. My general approach will be to create a program to turn off all B and C lights (via Follow Scenes) when any of the A buttons are pressed. Similarly for B and C. Is that the recommended approach? Should the program use Control or Status conditions? Are there any caveats... for example, do I need to add a delay to give the A scene time to complete before the program attempts to run the follow scene? Thanks, Raman

Right. Except the same also applies to B and C on each kpl i.e. B should turn out A and C, and C should turn out A and B. I'm assuming B and C from all the other kpl's have to be responders here? Maybe I'm missing something but when I set A to be a non-toggle (off), pressing the A button turns on the A led, but nothing else happens. I still need A to set and unset the loads in the scene, otherwise there isn't much point to this. I believe this is exactly what I did (and described in my first post) -- it doesn't work. I verified I am looking at the A as controller part of the scene, and double and triple checked the other kpl button responders. If A is a normal toggle button, the scene does the right thing in terms of loads, but the B and C buttons on the other kpls don't follow the scene settings and remain off -- they only toggle from off to on (the end result being the A, B, and C are lit on all the KPLs except the one I used).

Hi Mark -- yes, using scenes to set the buttons is what I'm trying to do. All the responding buttons are in each scene and are set to the correct on/off value. However, its not working -- they just toggle rather than get set to the value specified in the scene controller.

I have four KPLs, 3 6-button and 1 8-button, along with a couple of other switches that are all part of three scenes. In these three scenes (activated by buttons A/main, B, and C) on each of the KPLs, the various loads present in all of the scenes are on or off. I am using the new "KPL Button Groupings in Scenes" functionality in 2.7.8+ to manage the KPL button lights (currently running 2.7.11). The idea is that if button A is pressed on any of the KPLs, button B and C will go out on all of them (since the scenes are mutually exclusive). Same idea when B or C are pressed. However, what seems to happen is that all the button lights in the scene are simply toggled, rather than following the on-level of 0 (i.e. off) set in the scene. For example, starting from an all-off state, button A is pressed on the first KPL. The scene loads do the right thing (turning on or off correctly), but in addition to button A being correctly illuminated buttons B and C are also incorrectly illuminated on each of the three other KPLs. I've tried restoring all of my devices but the behavior is the same. I have also tried changing the buttons toggle mode to "Non-toggle" to no avail.

There are several problems with this "simple" approach: 1) Its not always obvious which scene to turn "off" first before turning the desired one "on". One scenario where it becomes confusing is when lights are members of multiple scenes (not unusual) e.g. my movie scene also includes the nearby hallway lights. So now I would have to manually turn off *all* the scenes that include my hallway lights, before turning on the movie scene. Now multiply this by 20 or 30 or more scenes. Ouch. *And* I may or may not have even *wanted* to affect the actual level of the lights in the other scenes, other than the hallway light. 2) There is a serious delay between pressing the button and having the right room lights and buttons activate, as the various scenes turn off, and then there is a delay, and then the desired scene turns on. It would be much better if the desired scene was set immediately, and then all the buttons corresponding to other scenes that are now not set were turned off (ideally this would happen simultaneously, but some delay in the button lights is ok IMO). The approach I am trying to use that attempts to work around the above issues is to have "follow-me" programs that turn on/off keypad buttons that correspond to scenes based on whether the status of all the scene participants matches the scene settings. However, its *really* difficult to manage -- one minor change to scenes or lighting levels can mess lots of things up as all sorts of follow-me programs have to change as well. I think we really need the "scene and group status" functionality described here to do this: http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=1703 FWIW, managing scene/group status is really the one missing thing putting a crimp in my use of the ISY, which is otherwise wonderful. Cheers, Raman