upstatemike

Those are RA2 repeaters. They do not extend the RA3 mesh.

From what I can see they have not changed the Aux Repeaters or any other piece of RA2 gear. The RA3 hub also acts as the Main for RA2 but from there the two networks are completely separate. All the old 60/30 rules for RA2 stay the same.

I said hybrid because that is the term Lutron used. Dual System is a distinction without a difference. If you use anything other than a switch, dimmer or keypad then it will be RA2 because that is the full spectrum of RA3 devices. If you want to extend beyond a radius of 75 feet it will be RA2 because there is no provision to extend the mesh beyond that limit.

No the design requires all devices to be within 75 feet of the hub and within 25 feet of at least 2 other devices. Both of thes have to be met (though I assume the second one is waived if you only have 1 device).

You really should check the training before you make any long term plans about RA3. Unlike RA2, RA3 is a 2.4G Mesh system with a maxim radius of 75 feet (ie 150 foot diameter... shorter than the length of my house). You will need to do a hybrid of RA2 and RA3 to cover a larger area. Also note that there are not RA3 equivalents for all existing RA2 devices so you will be doing a hybrid system for that reason as well.

The first thing I ever modified was my parents old Emerson tube record console. It plays 78s and I still have it and their records.

Not so much caught up in the old ways as taking the time to understand what is better about the new ones (and what is just marketing BS). Terms like "everyone else" is a big red flag to me as corporations try to define what "everyone else" should want rather than listening to what they are actually asking for. They hope to control demand rather than respond to it. Apple says "everyone" should want their Home Automation tied to an iPhone and now Homekit is little more than a footnote in the HA universe. Insteon says "everyone" prefers a closed ecosystem and sabotages most any kind of partnership leading to their current state. Countless people claim that needing an HA hub is somehow "bad" or cloud services are better than local infrastructure. Just because a company or a majority (mob) want something to be true doesn't meaan it is and just because I don't buy into the marketing hype or rush to embrace every passing trend doesn't mean I can't make technology work the way I want it to... my solutions just might not align with conventional opinions. And that is OK too.

The need for companies to make money does not translate to a need for me to buy products that do less than the products I already own do. There has to be some incentive for me to "move on" otherwise I will stick with what I have (as Microsoft is learning in trying to get people to upgrade to newer versions of Windows that don't offer any new benefits). Following the masses like a Lemming is most likely going to end with you falling off a cliff. The ability to access a ridiculous number of music tracks is pointless if most of what you are paying for is garbage. It just adds insult to injury if the few things you do like are constantly being messed with or suddenly made unavailable. The order songs are played in matters just as much as the song selection. Just playing a bunch of tunes in some random order is definitely a huge step backward in the quality of any music listening experience. If you don't have space in your home to store a few cassettes you have more serious problems than worrying about what music format to use. Not sure I understand your point about low cost of entry... I thought you were promoting Lutron?

Even the micro on/off modules are too large for old style fixtures and boxes. Running new wire in a lathe and plaster wall with inconsistent wall cavities is pretty much impossible. Screw-in modules are a neccessity for any protocol that does not include smart bulbs.

That is actually a good point and and might become true for a number of automation technologies. I'm sure it would be no fun to have a home buyer demand that all of the automated switches be removed from the house before they will proceed with the closing... tomorrow.

I'm probably going to give RA3 a try sometime next year as well. By far the most common situation I run into is needing to convert an old pull chan ceiling fixture to be able to use a switch. Because of the old construction and the nature of old fixtures there is no way to run a wire for a switch or to find space for a wired relay module in the fixture or box so you have to use a battery switch and screw-in module or smart bulb. It would be ideal to use a Sunnata style Pico switch with an RA3 screw-in module to address these situations.

Just remember "moved on" is just code for "settled for less". When companis make you "move on" it is to benefit themselves with regards to increased profit or reduced support headaches. It rarely turns out to benefit the existing investment of individuals or consumers in general. My cassette mix tapes still work fine and provide the exact versions of the exact songs I want to hear in the exact order I want to hear them. I cannot replicate that with any streaming service without dealing with tracks in the playlist suddenly becoming unavailable or getting substituted by newer versions of the song that I don't care for. And I won'r even get started about paying a monthly subscription to buy the same songs over and over. These problems are not offset by any new feature or benefit that I care about so "moving on" is not a good thing. So likewise I approach any opportunity to "move on" in home automation with a healthy skepticism and demand that it actually provide something new that I want without impacting any feature that I already have. Doing a subset of what I do now and simply doing it differently does not qualify as being better.

Z-Wave Long Range (800 chip) eliminates the Insteon PLC advantage of not needing to "build out" a mesh to get coverage in a remote location. Z-Wave will support Matter so Google and Amazon won't feel a need to kill it. I don't recall seeing anything about Insteon supporting Matter. Z-Wave supports direct association (while Zigbee does not) so it is a pretty easy transition from Insteon. Z-Wave has a wide variety of niche devices that protocols like C4 and RadioRA do not and Insteon no longer does. I think it is "game over" for Insteon and long live Z-Wave for the next few years at least. Even if somebody bought the Smartlabs patents I don't see them doing much more with it than Nokia is trying to do... a small number of entry level devices with no plans to cater to larger or more complex installations.

Maybe they can do the same thing for Insteon in Home Automation as they did for the Slim Devices Squeezebox in the Digital Music Player space.

Nope, all gone.

No PLMs, No Hubs, No Wireless USB interface. No way for new customers to use the products except manual linking... except nothing left to link anyway apart from Keypadlincs. How long can any company keep going with nothing to sell to new customers? Would anybody even buy out their patents at this point?

That kind of load sensing is an issue too because to turn a lamp off locally you disable remote control. The normal way to handle lamp control is to disable the local lamp switch with some clear packing tape or other means and use a table top remote (Pico, Insteon mini controller, Hue button, etc.) to control the lamp module. Is there some reason this would be objectionable?

Do you mean something like this? https://www.amazon.com/NEO-Z-Wave-Monitor-Automation-SmartThings/dp/B07DD7KL3M/ref=sr_1_10?gclid=Cj0KCQiAzMGNBhCyARIsANpUkzPUrHdZjoXJeTWqPk1tlLvgB1pS14QWZaLH25K1WgYn6-Tk4JFU2gYaAqAuEALw_wcB&hvadid=282452970126&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9005078&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=9798741575615516932&hvtargid=kwd-303275239438&hydadcr=8458_9619025&keywords=z-wave%2Benergy%2Bmonitor&qid=1639016570&s=hi&sr=1-10&th=1

That's good to hear. I was worried that pre-staging Z-Wave might be a problem when the switches are installed in the field and had to adjust to the new topology. I don't want to be waiting around onsite for some extended time while the switches recalculate their routing table before I can finish testing and get out of there.

I was wondering if anybody is doing any pre-staging of ISY and Z-Wave? Shop time is a lot cheaper than field time so it would make sense to do as much enrolling and programming as possible in advance and just dedicate on-site time to physical installation and testing. Is this practical using an ISY and Z-Wave devices?

If you are using Z-Wave I'm not sure picking a single brand has any meaning unless you are going to install everything all at once and want the devices to match. Brands will change their product or outsource and sell rebranded items made by others such that staying within a particular brand over time really has no meaning anymore. The best you can do is settle on a single technology and even that question is not yet settled for most people here.

Boy those were some boring times... glad we are well past that! To recap from the 2nd post the technical answer was Z-Wave.

Aluminum house wiring was the Omicron of it's time and it never went away so...

Probably outlawed by the same geniuses who approved the use of Aluminum house wiring in the 70's.