Dual band dimmer switch stop communicating

[timster]

Hello,

 

I have a completely new system that I installed a couple months ago. Until now I've had no problem but for some reason one of my many dual band dimmer switch #2477D stopped communicating. I'm wondering if the switch went bad because I've got another dimmer switch on the same circuit (~10 feet away) that responds correctly. Other than swapping the switch, is there any other way to debug this?

 

Thanks!

[LeeG]

Does the switch work when the paddle is manually operated?

 

That is, is the problem limited to communication problem. The air gap switch can be pulled to remove power from the device. Restore the air gap switch level with the frame being careful not to push air gap switch past frame as that can cause a factory reset.

 

What type of load is controlled by the switch?

 

I like to connect a device in question to an appliance cord (plug on one end, bare wires on the other) and plug the device into the PLM plug point. That eliminates the bulk of the Insteon network. If the device will turn On/Off with communication it is likely okay.

[timster]

Hi Lee,

 

Yes, the switch operate the lights correctly when the paddle is manually operated so it seems to be a communication only problem.

 

The switch controls 3 hard wired track lights so there is no outlet involved. I reset the circuit breaker hoping to "reboot" the switch, but that made no difference.

 

I'll pull the switch and try your trick.

 

Thanks.

[LeeG]

Pulling the air gap produces the same result as turning the circuit breaker Off.

 

What type of devices are in the track lights? CFL, LED, incandescent? What is the total watt being controlled?

[timster]

There are only 3 incandescent lights of which one has been take out so it's only pulling 80 watts. My stereo and TV are on the same circuit breaker, but I'm assuming that makes no difference. It has worked for months so I'm surprised it's suddenly having issues.

[LeeG]

The test to see if the stereo or TV is having an effect is to unplug those devices. Turning them Off is not enough as the power supply is still active in both. Something has changed. Could be a Insteon device failure, could be an issue with coupling (Access Point gets unplugged to vacuum and either not plugged in or plugged into a different outlet), powerline interference, RF interference. Devices get moved around so something that is generating interference is now in position to cause problems with that device. The list is long when starting to analyze the source of a problem.

[arw01]

So a power shut off at the panel is the equivalent of the airgap? did not know that. I had a dual band that did not respond to the paddle the other day, but would to the ISY. I did an air gap and problem went away.

 

Give it a try. If it does not work, do a factory reset and then restore the device from the ISY admin console. If the problem continues, then I would pull the switch.

 

What does the level three event logs show before and after the air gap and factory reset?

 

First parts are less work.

 

Alan

[Brian H]

Alan; Saw your post over in the Smarthome Forums. Your problem was a new one on me.

Most times they get glitched from a noise spike or brief power drop and lock up completely. Not just ignore local paddle input but still respond to power line signals.

Glad the power reset with the Air Gap switch fixed your problem.

 

timster; I hope it is something simple like a locked up device that a Air Gap Power Reset will correct.

 

The Air Gap cycle is covered in the full users manuals for the devices. I believe page 9 in the 2477D V7+ manuals gives a hint to what it does.

[timster]

Pulling the air gap didn't help nor did a factory reset. I removed the switch from my ISY and tried to add it back with "start linking". When I hit the set button the switch, the ISY found it, however during the final ISY linking process, the ISY responded with "Cannot determine Insteon Engine". I guess that is still the communication issue.

[oberkc]

the ISY responded with "Cannot determine Insteon Engine". I guess that is still the communication issue.

 

When I see that response, my first inclination is to suspect that you have a device not recognized by the ISY. What version of ISY software are you running?

[timster]

I'm running v4.0.5. The switch worked fine for months and suddenly stopped communicating to my ISY. Other identical switches on the same circuit work fine. I think the switch went bad. I'll pull it out and test it next to my PLM.

[arw01]

turn on level 3 logging, and then right click on the device in the tree, choose diagnositcs, querry engine and post what you get.

[timster]

I removed the device in earlier experiments so here are the results when trying to add it.

 

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:05 PM : [ 22 18 FF 1] CLIHUM 64

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:09 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 22.18.FF 22.7F.3A 01 6F 3F (3F)

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:09 PM : [std-Direct ] 22.18.FF-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:09 PM : [ 22 18 FF 1] CLIHUM 63

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:22 PM : [22 DF D3 ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:22 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 22 DF D3 0F 0D 00

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:22 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 22.DF.D3 0F 0D 00 06 (00)

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:31 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 22 DF D3 0F 0D 00

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:31 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 22.DF.D3 0F 0D 00 06 (00)

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:40 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 22 DF D3 0F 0D 00

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:40 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 22.DF.D3 0F 0D 00 06 (00)

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:44 PM : [22 DF D3 0 ] Failed to add device, reason 3

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:44 PM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

[oberkc]

I think the switch went bad.

 

Always a possibility.

[LeeG]

The device address 22 DF D3 is not responding to a basic command. The ISY sent the command three times and the device failed to respond to any of the three attempts. Connect the device to an Appliance cord (plug on one end, bare wires on the other) and plug the device into the PLM plug point. Repeat the device add. There should be an 02 5x response after each command request.

 

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:22 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 22 DF D3 0F 0D 00

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:22 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 22.DF.D3 0F 0D 00 06 (00)

 

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:31 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 22 DF D3 0F 0D 00

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:31 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 22.DF.D3 0F 0D 00 06 (00)

 

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:40 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 22 DF D3 0F 0D 00

Mon 07/08/2013 02:27:40 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 22.DF.D3 0F 0D 00 06 (00)

[timster]

I had another dual band dimmer switch (23 C3 FC) and swapped it in. It sorta works. The first time I added it, the link failed with:

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:31 PM : [23 C3 FC 1 ] Start : Adding device to ISY

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:31 PM : [23 C3 FC 1 ] Finish : Adding device to ISY was Successful

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:45 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] OL 255

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:45 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] RR 28

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:54 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] ST 255

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:54 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] OL 255

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:54 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] RR 28

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:54 PM : [23 C3 FC 0 ] Successfully added device

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:54 PM : [All ] Writing 16 bytes to devices

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:54 PM : [23 C3 FC 1 ] Link 0 : 0FF8 [A200227F3AFF1F01] Writing [A200227F3AFF1F01]

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:55 PM : [PLM ] Group 0 : Writing Controller Link matching [23 C3 FC 1 ] Link 0 : 0FF8 [A200227F3AFF1F01]

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:58:55 PM : [23 C3 FC 1 ] Link 1 : 0FF0 [E201227F3AFF0001] Writing [E201227F3AFF0001]

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:59:17 PM : [PLM ] Group 1 : Writing Responder Link matching [23 C3 FC 1 ] Link 1 : 0FF0 [E201227F3AFF0001]

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:59:17 PM : [23 C3 FC 1 ] Link 2 : 0FE8 [0000000000000000] Writing [00..............]

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:59:18 PM : [23 C3 FC 1 ] Link 3 : 0FE0 : Writing High Water Byte

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:59:40 PM : [ 22 18 A 1] CLIHUM 50

 

Mon 07/08/2013 07:59:55 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] ERR 1

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:00:31 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] ERR 0

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:00:31 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] ST 0

Mon 07/08/2013 08:00:49 PM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:01:00 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] RR 27

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:01:00 PM : [All ] Writing 1 bytes to devices

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:01:00 PM : [23 C3 FC 1 ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0021 [1B] cmd1=0x2E cmd2=0x00

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:01:37 PM : [All ] Writing 1 bytes to devices

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:01:37 PM : [23 C3 FC 1 ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0264 [0A] cmd1=0x2E cmd2=0x00

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:01:57 PM : [All ] Writing 1 bytes to devices

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:01:57 PM : [22 DE 39 1 ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0264 [01] cmd1=0x2E cmd2=0x00

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:02:07 PM : [All ] Writing 1 bytes to devices

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:02:07 PM : [23 C3 FC 1 ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0264 [01] cmd1=0x2E cmd2=0x00

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:02:29 PM : [23 C3 FC 1 ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0264 [01] cmd1=0x2E cmd2=0x00 - Failed

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:02:29 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] ERR 1

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:02:38 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] ERR 0

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:02:38 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] ST 25

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:02:45 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] ERR 1

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:02:58 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] ERR 0

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:02:58 PM : [ 23 C3 FC 1] ST 0

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:04:15 PM : [All ] Writing 2 bytes to devices

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:04:16 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 23 C3 FC 0F 0D 00

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:04:16 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 23.C3.FC 0F 0D 00 06 (00)

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:04:18 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 23.C3.FC 22.7F.3A 2B 0D 02 (02)

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:04:18 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 23.C3.FC-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:04:18 PM : [23 C3 FC 0 ] Calibrating engine version

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:04:18 PM : [23 C3 FC 1 ] Memory : Write dbAddr=0x0264 [01] cmd1=0x2E cmd2=0x00

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:04:18 PM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 23 C3 FC 1F 2E 00 00 07 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 CA

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:04:18 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 23.C3.FC 1F 2E 00 00 07 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 CA 06 (00)

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:04:20 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 23.C3.FC 22.7F.3A 27 2E 00 (00)

 

Mon 07/08/2013 08:04:20 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 23.C3.FC-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1

 

I then restored the device and it seems to work okay now, but it makes me think something else is going on here. I'll get an extension cord and check the "bad" switch.

[timster]

I took the "bad" switch and using an extension cord, plugged it in next to my PLM. It works beautifully.

 

That leads me to believe there is some interference on the other circuit. It is interesting that the "new" switch works most of the time (it looses communication for a few minutes here and there).

[LeeG]

timster

 

No two devices have the exact same operational characteristics. Electronic devices are made up of components that have a rating of some value +/- 10% or +/- 20%, etc. A 10K resister may have a rating +/- 5%, +/- 10%, +/- 20%. It is inevitable that some variation will exist between devices and still be within the manufactures overall specs. The fact that the second device also has issues strongly suggests a communications issue at the install location. Could be powerline, could be RF. The fact that the first device is working at the PLM location indicates it is not a dead device. The first device may work perfectly well in a different location.

[ELA]

Hello Timster,

 

As LeeG has said no two devices will have the same response characteristics.

And then there are also devices that may work well in a pristine test bench environment yet fail miserably in a real world environment.

 

I suspect we will be seeing more and more issues with such devices with the introduction of i2CS and increased use of extended messages.

I had a similar issue to what you have experienced here:

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?p=90372#p90372

 

Once the device was linked ( by moving it closer to the PLM) it would work reasonably well from the remote location with standard length messages ( in a scene or using standard direct commands). Try to link, or use extended commands, .... not so much.

[johncrab]

I had this exact same thing happen. Over a few months I would get an occasional communication error but function locally and from the ISY seemed fine. One morning I could not communicate with the switch at all, although it worked fine from the paddle. Pulling the air gap did not fix it, nor did a factory reset.

 

I deleted the switch from the ISY (after first writing down its HEX address so I would not have to remove the switch cover plate) then I added it back, giving the ISY the HEX address and correct module type. It found it, connected with it and I just had to add it back to the programs that used that switch. It's been working fine ever since.

[arw01]

That makes me wonder if the linc table in the device itself maybe get's corrupted.