Insteon Device State Changes Not Visible to ISY/PLM

[hisenberg]

I have an ISY99i connected to a 2413s PLM. Through the ISY or the MobiLinc, I am able to control all switches, thermostats and irrigation devices. However, when I switch off a light from the physical switch itself, the new state (on or off) is not reflected in the ISY or the MobiLinc. If I go to the ISY and manually query the device, it finds the new state of the switch. Is the ISY supposed to work that way? If I am not in a room or away from home, how can I make sure I know about changes to the insteon devices that are not initiated through the ISY?

By the way, I thought this was a PLM issue, so I bought a new PLM and did the "Restore PLM" procedure. Apparently, it's behaving the same way.

In both the old and new PLM, if I query the PLM Links Table, it comes up EMPTY.

Any suggestions?

[LeeG]

It sounds like a Delete Modem (PLM) was issued during the process of replacing the PLM. This wiped out all the references to the PLM. It is necessary to restore an ISY backup taken before the Delete Modem (PLM) was issued. Then do a Restore Devices and Restore Modem (PLM).

[hisenberg]

Before I issued the delete PLM, I checked the PLM Table and found it to be empty. This is why I purchased a new PLM thinking that that the old PLM was faulty. So I don't really have a backup of the PLM. The ISY backup doesn't help me in this case. Any other suggestions? Do I have to go and manually link every switch to the PLM?

[LeeG]

Sounds like the original PLM lost its link records. A Restore Modem (PLM) may have corrected that condition. When a Delete Modem (PLM) is issued all references to the PLM are deleted. This function is meant to be used by a contractor that has used an ISY to configure/link an Insteon installation and is removing the PLM and ISY. Once the PLM references are deleted the only way to bring them back is to restore an ISY BackUp that was taken before the Delete Modem (PLM) was issued.

 

The only way to fix it now is to delete and readd all the devices.

[hisenberg]

>> The only way to fix it now is to delete and re-add all the devices.

 

Do I really need to DELETE every device? This will mess up all my programs! Every program that has a device, I would need to re-add the device. Isn't there a more automated way?

[LeeG]

Not that I know of.

 

Once the PLM was Deleted the ISY and its devices no longer reference the PLM Insteon address. That is the point of Deleting the PLM, references to it are removed.

 

When done by mistake the solution is to restore an ISY backup that was taken before the PLM was Deleted. The backup will still have the PLM references. If no ISY backup is available then readding the devices is the solution.

[hisenberg]

OK, so I have to delete and re-add each device. I get that. But is there anyway to preserve all the programs that reference that device?

When I delete a device, all programs that reference that device also have the device deleted. I have have to manually re-add every device I delete to every program I delete? It going to take me hours! Any suggestions?

[oberkc]

None that I am aware. Like LeeG stated, a backup of the ISY help minimize the rework, but absent of this, I think one would have to manually add the devices back into the programs.

[LeeG]

Unfortunately there is no painless means of recovering from a Delete Modem when there is no backup. Program references to the devices is by an internal ID, not its name. Same with Scenes. Once the devices have been added back they will have to be added to Programs and Scenes.

 

Take an ISY backup as soon as things have been restored. Would be a good idea to take backups periodically during the recovery process. Taking a backup whenever changes are made to Programs, Scenes, Devices, Variables, and so on will keep this from happening in the future.

[scansbar]

I have an ISY99i connected to a 2413s PLM. Through the ISY or the MobiLinc, I am able to control all switches, thermostats and irrigation devices. However, when I switch off a light from the physical switch itself, the new state (on or off) is not reflected in the ISY or the MobiLinc. If I go to the ISY and manually query the device, it finds the new state of the switch. Is the ISY supposed to work that way? If I am not in a room or away from home, how can I make sure I know about changes to the insteon devices that are not initiated through the ISY?

By the way, I thought this was a PLM issue, so I bought a new PLM and did the "Restore PLM" procedure. Apparently, it's behaving the same way.

In both the old and new PLM, if I query the PLM Links Table, it comes up EMPTY.

Any suggestions?

 

 

I have the ISY994i Pro with the 2413s PLM and have the same issue or maybe it is the way it is supposed to be with my appliance switch. When I physically press the button on the switch the state doesn't get updated to the Mobilinc or the ISP until I log into ISY and manually query it. It will update the state if I'm controlling it via Mobilinc.

Is this how it normally works?

I'm relatively new at this learning.

Thank you for your time once more.

Mark

[LeeG]

The Smarthome ApplianceLinc does not have Controller function. It does NOT send notification when manually operated at the ApplianceLinc. Look at the ApplianceLinc User Guide. It has no instructions for linking the device as a Controller because the function does not exist.

[Brian H]

No reporting from Local Changes is normal. As LeeG pointed out.

Even my very new 2456S3 Appliancelinc V4.A Hardware and .42 Firmware does not report changes.

[scansbar]

The Smarthome ApplianceLinc does not have Controller function. It does NOT send notification when manually operated at the ApplianceLinc. Look at the ApplianceLinc User Guide. It has no instructions for linking the device as a Controller because the function does not exist.

 

That is too bad since the lamplinc reports it. Oh well what can you do.

Thank you

[LeeG]

It varies by device type. For example, the OutletLinc Relay does not report state changes. The OutletLinc Dimmer does report state changes. The answer about any specific device can usually be found in the respective device User Guide. If the User Guide does not have instructions for linking the device as a Controller it does not report state changes.

[hisenberg]

SOLVED!

After trying some tests, I found away to automate the "re-add" device without having to manually edit every program (as was suggested in earlier posts).

Here are the steps:

 

1. Backup ISY

2. Delete device(s)

3. Re-link Deleted device(s)

4. Restore ISY

5. Repeat 1 through 4 for any devices that failed the re-link (usually only need to do this if you have dozens of devices that you are re-adding and one or two fail).

 

Any way, I successfully re-added all devices and did not have to re-edit a single program.

[LeeG]

Thanks for the update. Can you expand on item 3. Since the device was Deleted from the ISY does this mean link records were recreated with the use of Set buttons. If so how did you recreate these in the location and order the ISY expects them. Was the device relinked with the Set button to the PLM and all the devices (Scenes) the device is in. Again, how did you recreate these in the location and order the ISY expects them.

 

I am afraid you are sitting on a ticking time bomb as far as the link records are concerned. The ISY knows where it wrote every link record in every device (except the PLM). Any change to things like On Level, Ramp Rate is done at the link record location the ISY believes the link is located. Changes to Scenes the same thing. If the link records are not In the expected location and order your system is in a worse state than before.

[hisenberg]

My assumption is that when I re-add through re-linking is that only the re-linked device is added to the PLM. When I re-link, I also request that existing links remain.

Bottom line, is that everything is working. The PLM is recognizing when switches are physically changed and communicating that back to the ISY (which was not happening before).

 

Is there a diagnostic you suggest I run to examine your concerns?

[LeeG]

I misunderstood what Step 3 represented. New INSTEON Device or Start Linking was used to add the Deleted device back to the ISY. That part is fine. What is wrong now is that the backup/restore ISY sequence puts the ISY configuration information back where it was without the necessary PLM link information. A Restore Modem (PLM) will not bring back the needed PLM link records should the PLM link database be lost or corrupted. Although physically being notified about device state changes the restored ISY configuration does not match the actual system configuration.

 

The Show Device Links Table followed by Compare will display what is in the device versus what the ISY says should be there. That will provide information about how well the old ISY configuration matches what is in the device.

 

There is no Compare function for the PLM link records as the ISY does not know the actual location of any of the PLM link records. The Serial PLM commands for link record management differ from those used to manage link records over the powerline.

[hisenberg]

The Show Device Links Table followed by Compare will display what is in the device versus what the ISY says should be there. That will provide information about how well the old ISY configuration matches what is in the device.

 

There is no Compare function for the PLM link records as the ISY does not know the actual location of any of the PLM link records. The Serial PLM commands for link record management differ from those used to manage link records over the powerline.

 

I ran the "Show PLM Links Table" command which showed about 86 links.

What command do I run to get the ISY links? When I select "Show ISY Links Table" it asks to pick a device first. Do I need to do that for each device and see if it is reflected in the out of the "Show PLM Links Table"? Can you please tell what exact steps I need to do to "Compare" the links I the ISY to the links I the PLM?

 

Thank you,

[LeeG]

Right click a device node (primary node if KPL), select Diagnostics | Show Device Links Table. When the display is complete click the Compare button which will display another popup comparing the link records read from the device against the ISY link information. This would be done for each device where the link records may be in question.

 

There is no Compare function for the PLM. The ISY does not control where the link records reside in the PLM so there is nothing to Compare against.

 

There is no Show ISY Link Table for the PLM for the same reason.

[hisenberg]

OK, so I tested three devices and all had mismatches.

The ISY was also missing the links to the new PLM.

 

Isn't there a way to edit the ISY Links Table or to have the ISY Links Table reset its links based on the PLM or the device?

If not, can this be a feature request?

[LeeG]

"Isn't there a way to edit the ISY Links Table"

 

No. The likely hood of manually producing a reliable configuration is too low to be useful.

 

"or to have the ISY Links Table reset its links based on the PLM or the device?"

 

Not based on the PLM. When a device is added there is the option to keep existing links.

 

The problem is that level of information is being destroyed when an ISY Backup is restored that was taken before the device is added. I understand the desire is to find a way to recover from a Delete Modem (PLM) in combination with not having a current ISY Backup. However, there are some combinations of errors for which there is no good means of automated recovery.

 

The solution is to Delete and readd the devices to rebuild the lost link information followed by whatever Program and Scene recover is necessary. Even if there was a tool to take the existing PLM links and rebuild some ISY link information the end result could not be considered valid. There is no way to insure what is in the PLM now is what needs to be there.