Signal Analyzer

[shannong]

Any have suggestions for signal analyzers for Insteon? I saw the Smartlabs Insteon Diagnostic Keypad but that seems marginally useful especially because I want quantitative results.

 

My primary goal is to identify and filter out noise. I'd like to measure noise and identify the specific sources and measure the impact of filters that I add. I realize that X10 and Insteon are different powerline frequencies, but are the X10 analyzers still useful for dealing with noise? I was looking at the units from Monterey and Advanced Control Technologies. Feedback on those specific products would be helpful.

 

Thanks.

[LeeG]

I have the Monterey Signal Analyzer from years ago when X10 was being used. I found it helpful. It does measure noise in an Insteon environment.

[shannong]

I have the Monterey Signal Analyzer from years ago when X10 was being used. I found it helpful. It does measure noise in an Insteon environment.

 

Thanks for your feedback.

[Brian H]

I have a JV Engineering XTBM. It can measure noise up to .99 volts and X10 signals up to 9.99 volts.

http://jvde.us/xtb/XTBM.pdf

 

The JV Engineering devices are aware of Insteon power line signal protocol. The XTBM in my home will display some Insteon messages. Though since the signal it is showing may have been passed on from the device you wanted to see. I bounces around with signal levels.

 

I mostly check for signal suckers with an X10 signal. As my XTB-IIR Repeater/Coupler hits my power lines with over a ten volt signal and respects Insteon. I can then plug in a questionable device and see how much signal drop is shown on my XTBM.

 

Checking for noise. I just try different locations in the home and observe the noise readings. While connecting and disconnecting suspected devices. I don't have the latest firmware in it. So I don't have the optional P1 being sent on a nose reduction to cloud things up. Though it can be disabled.

[shannong]

I have a JV Engineering XTBM. It can measure noise up to .99 volts and X10 signals up to 9.99 volts.

http://jvde.us/xtb/XTBM.pdf

 

The JV Engineering devices are aware of Insteon power line signal protocol. The XTBM in my home will display some Insteon messages. Though since the signal it is showing may have been passed on from the device you wanted to see. I bounces around with signal levels.

 

I mostly check for signal suckers with an X10 signal. As my XTB-IIR Repeater/Coupler hits my power lines with over a ten volt signal and respects Insteon. I can then plug in a questionable device and see how much signal drop is shown on my XTBM.

 

Checking for noise. I just try different locations in the home and observe the noise readings. While connecting and disconnecting suspected devices. I don't have the latest firmware in it. So I don't have the optional P1 being sent on a nose reduction to cloud things up. Though it can be disabled.

 

Here's the two key points I got in an email from the owner of JVE. "Insteon systems are relatively immune to noise" and "Both the XTBM and XTBM-Pro will try to identify Insteon signals as different from other noise...I would not recommend either of them for someone with a strictly Insteon system."

 

I don't agree with the first as I very much believe and see the results of noise in my Insteon environment. It seems if they identify Insteon separately from other noise they would still be useful for troubleshooting noise which I stated was my main goal, but if the designer and maker of them thinks it's a bad choice I'm not going to buy them.

[Brian H]

I have been a Community Organizer on the X10 forums with Jeff for many years.

He knows what he is talking about. He will not try and sell his wares to anyone. If he didn't think it was a good choice.

 

I still have a mixed system. Mostly Insteon but with an X10 address in my modules. As I still like to control individual modules with a HR12A Sixteen Address Palm Pad Remote.

Also no real good Insteon Chime Module and most work around are just that.

 

Again mostly X10 oriented but some can also be Insteon related. He has a great set of tutorials on noise, phase coupling and signal suckers.

I found the ones on the Chinese Cell Phone Charger and CFL noise very interesting.

http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm

 

I still have one of the ELK ESM1 signal meters shown in the cell phone charger noise tutorial.

I also still have an Smarthome X10 TesterLinc Signal Tester. I believe Insteon just shows as noise and bad X10 messages detected.

[shannong]

Some folks feel the X10 noise signal measuring feature is useful in a Insteon environment and others do not. I don't have enough experience to say. Based on Jeff's knowledge which far exceeds mine as a builder of such devices I've elected not to buy one.

 

I still don't agree with his assessment that Insteon is "relatively immune to noise".

[Brian H]

My thoughts are if there is power line noise on the X10 120KHz power line signal. There could also be noise on the 131.65KHz Insteon power line frequency.

 

Both X10 and Insteon use the Zero Crossing part of the AC waveform for timing.

 

Noise is not always the problem. A problem electrical device may not be making any power line noise but its internal power line filters. That keep its electronics noise from getting onto the power lines. Is absorbing the Insteon power line signals as noise.

[shannong]

[quote="Brian H"

Noise is not always the problem. A problem electrical device may not be making any power line noise but its internal power line filters. That keep its electronics noise from getting onto the power lines. Is absorbing the Insteon power line signals as noise.

 

Yeah. I'm also looking to identify signal suckers but that requires a measurement of signal strength.

 

I surprised at this stage of the game Smartlabs has not created one or another 3rd party manufacturer.

[LeeG]

SmartLabs has not authorized any other manufacturer to build a device that interfaces on the powerline in Insteon protocol.

 

The Monterey can help in measuring signal levels albeit it is analyzing what it thinks are badly formatted X10 messages.

[Brian H]

Yes Smartlabs is the only game in town these days.

The list of manufacturers interested in Insteon. The early Developers where given. Quietly disappeared and was never seen again.

 

Though quite a long thread. You may find some of the information in ELA's findings interesting.

I believe he customized a PLM to do signal tests. For personal use only.

As I could see Smartlabs getting testy if he offered it to others.

 

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5923

[shannong]

I read a good portion of the thread. Interesting but not actually helpful except I did check to make sure none of my LEDs matched those found at that thread to be especially troublesome.

 

A device to measure signal strength and noise in an Insteon environment wouldn't require any licensing. It only needs to listen and report on frequencies relevant to Insteon communications. There isn't an actual need to send/receive Insteon protocol messages to do that. The ISY can provide that mechanism to look at actual commands.

[ELA]

Hello Shannong,

 

The thread referenced was a bit long and bit technical at points. Sorry you did not find it helpful.

I have been setting up a site to compile my personal experience and to talk about the tester I developed.

It may not be ready for prime time and I am definitely not equipped at this point to produce or sell the testers.

If you care to have a look here:

 

http://www.elavenue.com/automation.html

 

If hope there might be something there that could be helpful in the "Test Data Area".

 

Please address any questions related to the tool itself at that site rather than here.

 

The biggest hurdle is low volume costs do not make for a very marketable tool. I hope to make a very limited number of them some day if I can just get around to building my 4th (final) prototype.

 

I participate here in hopes of helping others, and to learn from others, as time permits. Now that I have that site all my efforts here revolve around providing diagnostic assistance without using my tool.

 

I see you have two similar threads.

Understood that a oscope is a bit much for most. That was one of the intents of the tool design was to avoid the need for one.

[shannong]

 

The thread referenced was a bit long and bit technical at points. Sorry you did not find it helpful.

 

If hope there might be something there that could be helpful in the "Test Data Area".

 

 

No reasons for apologies. You've done a great service for all working on your project and sharing the info with all those here. I might not have seen the "Test Data Area" as I only read a few of the pages. I'll go back and look for that specifically.

 

I also checkout your site. Thanks for sharing.

[shannong]

 

If hope there might be something there that could be helpful in the "Test Data Area".

 

Please address any questions related to the tool itself at that site rather than here.

 

 

Ah.. I found the "test data" in the middle of the postings. At first I had only read the first few pages and last few. You definitely quantified a lot of knowledge that was existing and also debunked some common beliefs. It gives me a good baseline as a troubleshoot my own installation even without a tool.

 

You're approach of measuring signal suckers, strength, and reliability are exactly what I want to do and why I created the post. I actually don't care about decoding actual messages.

 

I don't like the idea of just filtering everything due to cost and unsightly additions. I also don't like to guess in the dark and try to convince myself "Yeah. I think Bedroom 3 seems more reliable since I did X." I also fear of holding myself and family hostage where I avoid adding new things not knowing what affect they might have. If I could just measure that would be awesome.

 

I can feel the light bulbs in my ceiling staring down at me and taunting with the threat they may or may not be signal sucking and interrupting communications with noise. Damn you!

[shannong]

I discovered the primary offender in my house.

 

It was a multi-function laser jet printer. It was a significant signal suck when idle and when running apparently was also spewing noise. My worst performing device went from a ping success rate of 85% to better than 99% after putting the printer on a Filterlinc.

[Brian H]

Glad you found it.

All it takes is one major offender to mess things up and sometimes finding it requires lots of leg work.

[TJF1960]

That is awesome!

Be thankful it was a device you could easily put a filterlinc on. The biggest offender in my house is a 2 year old clothes dryer which I cannot easily filter.

 

Great job tracking it down!

 

Tim

[gatchel]

That is awesome!

Great job tracking it down!

 

Tim

 

 

Agreed. Sometimes they can be a real hassle to track but persistence and a helper at the breaker box usually pays off.

[toflaherty]

How did you find it? Just unplug one thing at a time and check the response of all insteon devices a bunch of times?

 

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

[shannong]

How did you find it? Just unplug one thing at a time and check the response of all insteon devices a bunch of times?

 

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

 

For the most part. I added a few of the regular culprits to my HouseLinc instance to use their ping utility. That allowed a continuous quantitative measure without me manual operating the devices and keeping count.