malcolme Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 I have two different keypadlincs in my system that are not showing Linked Insteon in-linelinc Dimmers that are fully functioning. These Dimmers are located in places that are not easy to get to so cannot just have them show up by hitting the Set buttons on them. Any ideas how to get the Keypadlinc's to revel the modules? Best, Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 If the KeypadLinc is linked to another device its address will be displayed when the KeypadLinc Link database is displayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolme Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Hi LeeG, Thanks I know they are supposed to but I have two different KeypadLInc's with Modules that are linked to a button that do not appear. I looked at the device link table for the switch, the module is NOT listed but yet pressing the button DOES cause the module to turn on and off.... As mentioned before getting at the modules physically is tough so I am trying to find someway other than hitting the "set" button. Best, Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 One possibility is that there are some residual X-10 addresses programmed into some of your devices. If that is, in your mind, unlikely, then I would try a couple of things. From the ISY, show the links table from one of your troublesome devices. Perform a "compare" to the table the ISY thinks it should have. Mismatches will be identified. If there are any, "restore" the device. Or, just restore the device immediately. I see little risk unless you have marginal communication issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolme Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Thanks. This system never had any X-10 modules. I will try compare. If I do a restore, what does it restore and will it possibly delete the link to the device I can't see. It seems strange that the device does not show up. Any way to get the links only from a particular button? Best, Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 If I do a restore, what does it restore and will it possibly delete the link to the device I can't see. My understanding of the restore is that it will recreate the links based upon what the ISY thinks it should have and eliminate (or render harmless) any existing links that don't match. I am unsure whether a "show device links table" shows only a single button, or the entire keypad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 If the KeypadLinc does not have the inlineLinc address the link to the inlinelinc is broken. That usually means the KeypadLinc was linked to the inlinelinc manually so the ISY will not have a record. The nature of Insteon links allows the inlinelinc to respond to a KPL button press because the inlinelinc has a responder link for the KPL button even though the KPL does not know of the inlinelinc. Do a Show Device Links Table for the inlinelinc. I would expect to find a responder link for the KPL button in the inlinelinc link database. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolme Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Hi LeeG, Yes they were linked Manually and I don't know the address of the Inlinelinc, that is my whole issue. Anyway to crawl my network for devices? Best regards, Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 If there is another device that is linked to the inlinelinc the link database for that device may have inlinelinc address. It is inevitable that manual linking to devices not added to the ISY will result in broken/half links. Why was the inlinelinc not added to the ISY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 LeeG; Would reading the KPLs Link Database and then doing a compare. Show the manual links in the KPL as extra or mismatched IDs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 It would if the link was still in th KPL. With the OP indicating the links displayed from the KPL no longer having the inlinelinc link I take it the manual link record has long since been overwritten. It leaves the inlinelinc link database with a responder link pointing back to the KPL which is why the inlinelinc continues to react to the KPL button press. The inlinelinc is reacting to the Group Broadcast message from the KPL. What I don't understand is why the inlinelinc was not added to the ISY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 malcolme When device A (KPL button in this case) is linked to device B (InLineLinc in this case) a Controller link record is written in the KPL and a Responder link is written in the InLineLinc. When the KPL button is pressed the KPL sends a Group Broadcast message which does NOT contain the InLineLinc address. All devices linked to the KPL button normally react to this Group Broadcast message because each responder has a Responder link with the KPL address and button number. If the Controller link record in the KPL is over written the Group Broadcast message is still sent and the InLineLinc still reacts because the InLineLinc still contains its Responder link. This condition is referred to as a broken/half link. The Controller link record no longer exists in the KPL but the InLineLinc Responder link record remains. Half of the link exists which is why the condition is called a broken or half link. This happens with manual links because the ISY is not aware of them and will eventually over write either end of the link. It is not a matter of the KPL not displaying an active link record. The active link record in the KPL no longer exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolme Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 Hi LeeG, Ok I understand and yes these links with these devices were created manually before I had the ISY. So is there anyway to get the address of these devices so that I can add them to the ISY other than physically hitting their set buttons? Any type of group broadcast where all devices would reply with their addresses to the ISY? Thanks, Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Unfortunately not. A Group Broadcast message will cause a device with a Responder link to react physically to that message but that device does not send back an ACK. There could be many devices responding to the Group Broadcast message at the same time so Insteon devices are designed NOT to send an ACK to avoid multiple devices from transmitting at the same time. Also with the advent of the newest Insteon protocol change I2CS which started being released in March 2012 a device not linked to the PLM will not identify itself for security reasons. Depends on the age of the InLineLinc whether this applies. As Brian noted earlier if a device still has an active link to the InLineLinc a Show Device Links Table and Compare will indicate an active link that was not created by the ISY. Manual links do not remain in a KPL for long because of the link activity associated with so many different buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolme Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 LeeG, Ok thanks so much for all your help on this. I guess I will have to be happy with the devices working correctly for now until such time as I can get at them physically. It is a shame however that the isy cannot somehow crawl the network and have devices ID themselves. At some point we go overboard with security I think... Just my two bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Do you remember what link record option was used when the keypadLinc was added to the ISY? Remove existing links Add devices found in links and remove existing links Add devices found in links and keep existing links Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolme Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 3rd one- Add devices and keep existing links It did add other devices that were also added manually and in fact another 2 other Inlinelinc modules, just later revisions of the one that was not discovered. This is with a Rev 37 keypad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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