Repair of 2413S PLM When the Power Supply Fails

[Brian H]

11 hours ago, matapan said:

Thanks BrianH.

In an earlier post, OberKC suggested using film capacitors to replace the low voltage capacitors to increase reliability. Is this something that is possible? 

Also, is there any difference between a 2413U and a 2413S other than the daughterboard? Can a daughterboard from a 2413S replace a 2413U daughterboard to make a functional 2413S, providing the daughterboard is functional? 

Finally, for the 2443 Access Point, is there a way to tell if the access point has stopped functioning, other than to look for the presence of a lit LED indicator?

 

On the V2 2443 Access Points. The built in communications tests ( 4 Tap Test) may also fail or act strange.

I have swapped daughter boards in the older 2414 PLC and they worked.

I can't say about the PLMs. I suspect they may work but I have no USB 2413 PLM daughter board. They would probably have the USB Category and Subcategory ID if the ID was requested.

I know Smplehomenet was selling surplus 2412 units on EBay. They would put a serial or USB card in them your choice.

Just for giggles. I may try the one 2412U daughter board in a 2413S PLM.

[evilpete]

So my 2nd  PowerLinc just died, the first one lasted 3 year the 2nd one lasted a little over 7..

I've already ordered the parts (to be delivered today) when I took it apart I was a little surprised at the "creative" wiring (see attached photo).

There was also a serious smudge ( with a fingerprint ) of something slightly corrosive on the back of the board (again see photo)

I'll report back later replacing the caps brings it back to life
 

[Brian H]

That is a original hardware design V1.0. It may also be in a few other early 2413 PLM revision main boards. I have only seen a V1.0 myself.

It has hanging parts and rework on it. (C7 and C13 and an added coil).

The original designed board. Looks like it did not have a pi filter on the DC supply. Just a single capacitor for a filter. The pi filter  is on  the later designed PCB. So no hanging components or fly wires from the front of the PCB to the back.

Let us know what capacitor values you find in yours. I had one with a pair of 10uF/25VDC capacitors in mine. In the supply that can be 20.5VDC.

[evilpete]

11 hours ago, Brian H said:

Let us know what capacitor values you find in yours. I had one with a pair of 10uF/25VDC capacitors in mine. In the supply that can be 20.5VDC.

the c7 is a 10uF 35v cap  with another 10uF 35v cap soldered to it's leg and a 1mH soldered to the other leg.

honestly I am tempted to just order a new one given the corrosion (with fingerprint)  on the back and the shit-show  of hanging parts on the front.

I'll try to replace what I can without touching the hanging parts crap. but the corrosion is another story

------------------

Update:  the repair worked  (I hope),   although corrosion was bad enough that soldering was difficult enough that I didn't expect it to work

I'll do a burn in overnight,  if it fails, I'll just buy a new one..

BTW:  I have had practically zero failures of insteon devices ever since I installed a home surge protector in my main panel 8 years ago
(Intermatic IG3240RC3 Surge Protective Device https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003A3MUJI/ ) 
 

[Brian H]

From your PCB backside photo.

The firmware label on the main controller is 85.

The presently being sold V2.5 is 9E. So a new one would also get you later firmware and a freshly manufactured 2413S. 

The C7 and C13 caps are now designed to be in switching power supplies.

It also will have the new Serial Interface Daughter Board. It has a better serial interface chip. That has a  better ESD protection rating and a protection network is on the serial signals to the outside world.

[hart2hart]

A bit off topic but SmartHome has been out of stock for serial link PLMs for some time. Has anyone considered using the USB version with a usb to rs-232 converter? I’ve used one by Aten for many years in other applications.

[GMorgan]

32 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

A bit off topic but SmartHome has been out of stock for serial link PLMs for some time. Has anyone considered using the USB version with a usb to rs-232 converter? I’ve used one by Aten for many years in other applications.

Very Worrisome.  It seems that SH is draining inventory, either they have some new products to introduce, waiting for demand to pick up before placing an order for restock, or we could be up Schitt'$ Creek.   In this case it could be that they are ready to finally introduce the Super PLM (Faster, Bigger storage, Better reliability). 

[mwester]

1 hour ago, hart2hart said:

A bit off topic but SmartHome has been out of stock for serial link PLMs for some time. Has anyone considered using the USB version with a usb to rs-232 converter? I’ve used one by Aten for many years in other applications.

USB-to-Serial converters, at least those I've seen and used, go the wrong direction.  If you have a link to one going the other way, I'm interested!

I had a need when last my Serial PLM died to put my USB PLM in service, exactly as you suggest.  I ended up writing some software on a Raspberry Pi to act as a middleman.  The RPi's serial port connected to the ISY, and the USB PLM plugged into the RPI's USB ports.  It worked fine for the period of time I needed it (until my replacement capacitors came in and I got the serial PLM repaired).

Since then I've wondered if it was possible to swap out the USB daughterboard inside the USB PLM for the serial one from an old (failed) Serial PLM... need to try that at some point.

[Brian H]

Did a short test.
Only USB PLM I have is a V3.1 2412U.
I took the Serial Board from a rebuilt V1.5 2413S PLM.
Installed the Serial Board in the 2412 chassis.

Using a PLM test routine in DockLight Scripting.
It worked fine. Sent and received X10 commands. Acted correctly for other commands.
Only exception is it reported it was a Category 03 Subcategory 0B USB version PLM not the 03 11 Serial PLM.
I don't think an ISY994i uses the PLM type ID. Just the reported six digit Insteon ID and firmware version so it probably would work OK.

A USB to serial adapter would not work as pointed out. A USB PLM has a 'B' USB Jack not a 'A' USB plug on a USB to serial adapter.

 

[evilpete]

59 minutes ago, Brian H said:

A USB to serial adapter would not work as pointed out. A USB PLM has a 'B' USB Jack not a 'A' USB plug on a USB to serial adapter.

 

the Insteon 2448A7 Portable USB Adapter may be a good work around..

As for discontinued PLMs maybe their plan is to force people to use SmartHome branded Hubs?

how fast is the Insteon market shrinking ?

[BobMic]

44 minutes ago, Brian H said:

Did a short test.
Only USB PLM I have is a V3.1 2412U.
I took the Serial Board from a rebuilt V1.5 2413S PLM.
Installed the Serial Board in the 2412 chassis.

Using a PLM test routine in DockLight Scripting.
It worked fine. Sent and received X10 commands. Acted correctly for other commands.
Only exception is it reported it was a Category 03 Subcategory 0B USB version PLM not the 03 11 Serial PLM.
I don't think an ISY994i uses the PLM type ID. Just the reported six digit Insteon ID and firmware version so it probably would work OK.

A USB to serial adapter would not work as pointed out. A USB PLM has a 'B' USB Jack not a 'A' USB plug on a USB to serial adapter.

 

Interesting, that's not the case for irrigation controller.  All of the header pins for the daughter board, except for v+ (1) and GND (8), go to IO pins in the PIC microcontroller.  The program in the PIC 16F648A must be the same for USB and Serial, it's not on the irrigation base boards.  For one thing pin 6 on the header has a 1OOhz 1ms clock pulse. 

Header pinout

1 - +21v

2 - PIC pin 9  RB2/TX/CK

3 - PIC pin 12  RB5

4 - PIC pin 14  RB7

5 - PIC pin 8  RB1/RX/DT

6 - PIC pin 11  RB4

7 - PIC pin 13  RB6

8 - GND

 

 

[evilpete]

14 hours ago, Brian H said:

From your PCB backside photo.

The firmware label on the main controller is 85.

The presently being sold V2.5 is 9E. So a new one would also get you later firmware and a freshly manufactured 2413S. 

The C7 and C13 caps are now designed to be in switching power supplies.

It also will have the new Serial Interface Daughter Board. It has a better serial interface chip. That has a  better ESD protection rating and a protection network is on the serial signals to the outside world.

I agree I'm better off with a new one (Amazon promises delivery by next week. by the 17th)

II may install a MOV for surge protection in the new unit, I figure i can attach it via the screws on the inside in the plug (no soldering)  

[Brian H]

10 hours ago, evilpete said:

I agree I'm better off with a new one (Amazon promises delivery by next week. by the 17th)

II may install a MOV for surge protection in the new unit, I figure i can attach it via the screws on the inside in the plug (no soldering)  

An extra MOV can't hurt. On the AC input pin screws. You won't even have to modify the PCB.

[Brian H]

10 hours ago, BobMic said:

Interesting, that's not the case for irrigation controller.  All of the header pins for the daughter board, except for v+ (1) and GND (8), go to IO pins in the PIC microcontroller.  The program in the PIC 16F648A must be the same for USB and Serial, it's not on the irrigation base boards.  For one thing pin 6 on the header has a 1OOhz 1ms clock pulse. 

Header pinout

1 - +21v

2 - PIC pin 9  RB2/TX/CK

3 - PIC pin 12  RB5

4 - PIC pin 14  RB7

5 - PIC pin 8  RB1/RX/DT

6 - PIC pin 11  RB4

7 - PIC pin 13  RB6

8 - GND

 

 

I suspect the Smartenit (Simplehomenet) modules may have had a firmware that worked with their custom daughter boards.

I have seen the later 2413 main boards not boot without a daughter board on it. Like the earlier ones did. So another thought would be the Smartenit board didn't satisfy the base 2413 board.

[evilpete]

12 hours ago, Brian H said:

An extra MOV can't hurt. On the AC input pin screws. You won't even have to modify the PCB.

that was exactly what I was thinking,  there is plenty of room.

as I said above,  I have had zero failures of insteon devices ( not counting the PLM) ever since I installed a main surge protector in my main panel 8 years ago.

[Schlyguy]

I re-capped three Smartenit EZIO relay modules - two EZIO2x4 modules and an EZIO4O. Repair worked like a charm, brought all three back to life. I have some spare capacitors available, put them up on ebay here in case anyone is interested: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/174552309995 Thanks all for the information and discussion in this post. 

[Brian H]

Glad you got the Smartenit modules fixed. They where all built on the 2413 base PLM board?

The power line only versions with the 2412 base PLM board the capacitors are different,

[Schlyguy]

Yes - all 2413 base PLM board. See photo. Same poor construction standards as others have noted - flux not cleaned off the board, corrosion, etc. Replaced the caps and all good. 

[jds31]

Has anyone tried replacing the power supply with an external 5v device?  Could the 5v regulator output filter cap be removed and leads to external supply attached?  Also remove Inductor from pi filter for isolation.  I have about a dozen working or failed 2413 s and u.  So sacrificing a couple for testing is not a problem.

[Brian H]

1 hour ago, jds31 said:

Has anyone tried replacing the power supply with an external 5v device?  Could the 5v regulator output filter cap be removed and leads to external supply attached?  Also remove Inductor from pi filter for isolation.  I have about a dozen working or failed 2413 s and u.  So sacrificing a couple for testing is not a problem.

That will not work.

The main power supply in the 2413S/U is unregulated +12 Volts DC switching supply. Normally around 20Volts DC.

Page 12 of this thread has the base 2413 power supply schematic. In a PDF file you can download and study.

That unregulated +12 Volt DC supply is used for the power line transmitter. It also feeds a +5 volt regulator for logic supply and a +5 volt regulator on the Serial or USB Daughter board plugged into the main board.

There is also a small line driven supply for the Zero Crossing Sensor.

I have not seen any messages of a user disconnecting the unregulated +12 supply and feeding the electronics with an external supply around +20 Volts DC. Not too sure how the disconnected switches output would act.

[jds31]

Thanks, Brian.  I'll look at the schematic.

[Brian H]

I would be careful. I did an additional test.

I don't know if it was my high impedance meter reading some low current leakage. I found about 46VAC from both the +12 and supply common to earth ground.

I would think the T1 transformer would have isolated the low voltage output from the high voltage primary supply.

[Breezyken]

There is an isolation boundary separating the AC line from the primary 12 volt supply voltage consisting of T1 and U2, the optical isolator which provides feedback to the switching supply.  There is no "ground" on the AC side of the supply where the 4 power diodes are.  The 12 volt supply is referenced to the isolated side of the supply, such as the negative sides of C7, C13, and C14, and of course T1.  Maybe you are picking up some stray field from T1 and associated high frequency traces.

It's been almost four years since I repaired my 2413S PLM V1.B/1351 and it is still going strong!

[Brian H]

It was definitely some sort of stray reading. If I put a 1Meg resistor across the meter . It want from 46.6 volts to 22 volts. A 330K dropped it to 2.0 volts. This was on two 2413S PLMs. V1.5 and V2.1

I tend to be extra cautious as I have seen some of the Insteon modules having line derived supplies and folks trying to add external push buttons on theirs. The original 2456S3 ApplianceLinc actually has the main +30 volt supply tied directly to the hot Line input.

Good to read yous is still functioning strong.

 

[Breezyken]

Now I'm curious where you are measuring the unregulated supply voltage.  Are these functioning modules?  330K should have no effect on the voltage measurement.  Maybe try using a simple VOM?

I'm not adverse to putting a meter on any point in a line powered device, but if I need to use the scope I use an isolation transformer on the device.