chris87 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I've been slowly adding Insteon devices to my home. I've been very happy, but I am having communication issues with some devices. I have two ToggleLincs that seem to be inconsistent. When I open the ISY admin panel, I usually see a communication error message. If I try to control them through Mobilinc, I have to press the on button multiple times. I know that the Togglelincs are not dual band, but I do have three LampLincs, a GarageLinc, and a FanLinc. I noticed that the FanLinc is also inconsistent. I normally have to press the on button multiple times. I think that my phases are coupled with the LampLincs. I did the test to make sure. Should I get range extenders at this point? I suppose it could be a noise issue, but I can't really think what would be causing the issue. I appreciate any suggestions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 If you have a TV, computer, UPS, phone charger or any of a number of other devices plugged in, then there is a possibility of powerline problems. Did you try the 4-tap test in both directions with the LampLincs? Are the ToggleLincs both on the same circuit? If so, what else is on that circuit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Turn the ToggleLincs On/Off a few times and post the event trace. As noted the ToggleLincs are not Dual Band nor is the I/O Linc (GarageLinc). The FanLinc is Dual Band but it may not have good RF coverage sitting inside a Fan housing. The LampLincs must show the correct LED response for being on opposite 120v legs and in good RF range of each other. Many things can be creating powerline issues. Be sure the ISY PLM is not plugged into a power strip and that a power strip is not plugged into the same circuit as the PLM. Electronic devices can generate interference. A UPS is a common source of issues and should be isolated with a FilterLinc. The Hops Left count from the event trace will show how good comm is to the ToggleLincs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Years past there was no Dual Band product line (except for Access Points used to couple). I created a functioning Insteon network back then with no Dual Band devices. I had to isolate a UPS and other electronic equipment with a FilterLinc. Also had to put a FilterLinc on a noisy LCD TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris87 Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 I am pretty sure my LampLincs are on different phases, but I had difficulty with the four tap test. The instruction manual says that the LampLinc should blink green or be solid white if it is on the opposite phase. My LampLincs blink green/red. I tried numerous outlet combinations with the same result. The circuit that is giving me trouble has very few devices on it. I have a LampLinc on that same circuit, and it works flawlessly. The ToggleLinc is extremely inconsistent. I tried turning it on from within ISY, and I believe it took four or five attempts before working: Sun 10/19/2014 06:57:58 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:57:58 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:02 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:02 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:07 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:07 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:08 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:08 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:08 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF): Duplicate or ACK for a different device Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:17 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:17 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:18 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:18 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:18 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF): Duplicate or ACK for a different device Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:20 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:20 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:20 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF): Duplicate or ACK for a different device Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:22 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:22 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:22 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF): Duplicate or ACK for a different device Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:23 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:23 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:23 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:23 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF): Duplicate or ACK for a different device Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:24 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:25 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:26 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:26 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:26 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 05.AA.61 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF): Duplicate or ACK for a different device Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:28 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:29 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 05.AA.61 2C.08.F0 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:29 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 05.AA.61-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:29 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [5 AA 61 1] [ERR] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:29 PM : [ 5 AA 61 1] ERR 0 Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:29 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [5 AA 61 1] [sT] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:29 PM : [ 5 AA 61 1] ST 255 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I am pretty sure my LampLincs are on different phases, but I had difficulty with the four tap test. The instruction manual says that the LampLinc should blink green or be solid white if it is on the opposite phase. My LampLincs blink green/red. I tried numerous outlet combinations with the same result. The circuit that is giving me trouble has very few devices on it. I have a LampLinc on that same circuit, and it works flawlessly. The ToggleLinc is extremely inconsistent. I tried turning it on from within ISY, and I believe it took four or five attempts before working: Your result of the 4-tap test indicates possible communication problems. Having only a few devices on a circuit is not an indication of anything. You could have a dozen or more devices, none of which interfere, but it takes only one to suck up or stomp on the INSTEON signal. And Lee will interpret your trace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris87 Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 Your result of the 4-tap test indicates possible communication problems. Having only a few devices on a circuit is not an indication of anything. You could have a dozen or more devices, none of which interfere, but it takes only one to suck up or stomp on the INSTEON signal. And Lee will interpret your trace That's what I am trying to figure out. I can't think of anything that would be causing me trouble. There is no TV, phone charger, computer, etc. on that circuit. Is it possible that it is a device on a different circuit, but the same phase? I wish there was an easy way to tell if it is a range problem or a noise issue. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to add the range extenders and then review from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 There were many attempts to turn On 05.AA.61. Only once did the device ACK the request but it was with a Max Hops=3 Hops Left=2 which is as good as it gets. That suggests some form of interference that disappears at times rather than generally poor comm to that device. Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:28 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FF Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:29 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 05.AA.61 2C.08.F0 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF) Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:29 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 05.AA.61-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Range extenders may help and you're less limited in where you place them, except that you do lose an outlet. It's unlikely that something on a different circuit would interfere. Are both ToggleLincs on the same circuit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris87 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Range extenders may help and you're less limited in where you place them, except that you do lose an outlet. It's unlikely that something on a different circuit would interfere. Are both ToggleLincs on the same circuit? Both ToggleLincs are on the same circuit. I also have a LampLinc on that circuit, and it seems to work very well. If it's interference, I have no idea what is causing it. There are no appliances or other major devices on that circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris87 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 There were many attempts to turn On 05.AA.61. Only once did the device ACK the request but it was with a Max Hops=3 Hops Left=2 which is as good as it gets. That suggests some form of interference that disappears at times rather than generally poor comm to that device.Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:28 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 05 AA 61 0F 11 FFSun 10/19/2014 06:58:29 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 05.AA.61 2C.08.F0 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF)Sun 10/19/2014 06:58:29 PM : [std-Direct Ack] 05.AA.61-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Based on what you're seeing, it sound like range extenders won't help very much. I'm having a similar problem with my FanLinc. Do you think I should try them anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Turn all the circuits except ISY/PLM and ToggleLinc circuit Off. If things do not work look at what is being powered. If things work then turn the circuits back on one at a time. There are some X10 test devices that would allow signal level checking but those tools are expensive. I would try the turning circuits off first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Is the FanLinc on that circuit, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris87 Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Is the FanLinc on that circuit, too? The FanLinc is on a different circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris87 Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 I have three additional questions: 1. I seem to be having difficulty with the four tap phase test. The instruction manual says that the LampLinc should blink green or be solid white if it is on the opposite phase. My LampLincs blink green/red and then repeat. I have tried numerous outlet combinations with the same result. Does the green/red blinking indicate an opposite phase? 2. Is there a reason to buy a range extender as opposed to adding a LampLinc? My understanding is that LampLincs have range extender function built in, but I wasn't sure if it was less effective. 2. I realized that I have CFL bulbs, which could possibly be aggravating the issue. Although, three devices that have those bulbs work fine. Should I replace these bulbs with LEDs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 1. Do the LampLincs alternate between green and red or are they mainly green and an occasional red? 2. Range extenders are reported to have a greater range, but I'm not sure that it matters that much. 2. Some LEDs are a problem, too. A good test is to try incandescent bulbs. If the problem persists, than it's not the load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 My LampLinc blinks Red when receiving a test RF signal from a device on the same phase, blinks Green when on the opposite phase to the test device. I very short change in color can happen but the primary colors indicated will be flashed if RF reception is good. A LampLinc is placed where its function as a LampLinc is needed. That may or may not provide coupling. They are also more expensive if being used only for bridging. Replacing CFLs with LEDs may just exchange one problem device or another. Some CFLs work okay, some LEDs also work okay. Test the CFLs and possible LED replacement before mass replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 1. The latest version of the 2457D2 LampLinc may not use the four tap sequence. The Full Users Manual shows a fancy Set Button Flow chart to access the RF Beacon Test. Manual for the version with a flow chart. http://www.insteon.com/pdf/2457D2.pdf Manual for the older version without the flow chart. http://cache-m2.smarthome.com/manuals/2457D.pdf 2. My 2992-222 Range Extender is a 2457D2 with the dimmer parts not installed. I would expect it would be no better than a 2457D2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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