Controllers (Keypad and Switch) losing contact with Receiver (Switch)

[rgn2000]

I have a Switch (non dimming receiver) setup as 3 way, while the second switch is setup as the controller. I also added the receiver switch as a controller to one of another Keypad SwitchLink's keys.

 

The main receiver switch works fine, but somehow the controllers lose the connection with it. So say the power is turned on by either one of the controllers, all of a sudden I won't be able to turn it off from either controller. If I go to the main receiver switch, it works fine and the power will go off and the controllers are now back to be connected and will work for both on and off a few times, but will again lose the connection until I turn it on or off from the main receiver switch.

 

During the time that I lose connection, the main receiver won't be found in the interface, which is the 99i (I know it's discontinued). Once I turn on or off the main receiver switch, it comes back to the ISY as well as re-connecting with the other devices.

 

Now incidentally, the Keypad Link is also a controller for another 3 way (no other controllers) for the main On/Off keys and never has an issue whatsoever.

 

The main receiver switch is a new install, but could it be a dud? I am thinking not since it still works fine on it's own. Any ideas?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

[LeeG]

Both devices need to be a Controller of the 3 way Scene.

 

Please identify what type device is the new switch. New KPLs are Dual Band which 3.3.10 does not support.

[rgn2000]

What do you mean......."Both devices need to be a Controller of the 3 way Scene"?

 

The new switch is a SwitchLink On/Off 2476S V5.8 1126. Although it's new in the sense of being installed, it was bought over a year ago.

 

Thanks,
Rob

[rgn2000]

Ah, I think I figured it out. The SwitchLink I mentioned in my last reply was setup as a receiver in the scene. I changed it to a controller. Now all three are controllers in the scene, and I think everything is okay. Thanks for your help.

[LeeG]

A 3 way usually means 2 devices that can control the load, one physically, one being linked.

 

Did not realize that 3 switches were involved. This is usually referred to as a 4 way circuit.

 

Regardless of the terms used, all the devices that control the load either directly or with a link need to be Controllers in the Scene for all the Controllers to have the correct status.

 

Glad you got it working.

[stusviews]

Info only: Standard 3-way switches are so called because they have three terminals. They're used when the same load is controlled from exactly two locations. If control is needed from more that two locations, then a 4-way switch is used at each additional location beyond the first two.

 

A 4-way switch has four terminals and, like both standard on/off switches and 3-way switches, has only two positions, up or down.

 

Both 3- and 4-way switches are not labelled On or Off because the result of toggling the switch depends on what the last toggled switch did.

 

The wiring is usually referred to as a 3-way or multi-way configuration. (INSTEON switches use a different configuration.)

 

BTW, in most countries, switching a load from two locations is called two-way.

[rgn2000]

Okay I was wrong, it's not fixed.

 

First off, it's not a 4 way. I have 2 SwitchLinks as part of the 3 Way and is setup wiring-wise the way is supposed to be. The third controller happens to be a KeyLink Pad that also happens to be part of another 3 way for the main On/Off switch, but I am trying to assign Key 1 to this particular switch in question.

 

In Summary

 

SwitchLink (1) - 3 wires to it - part of 3 way

SwitchLink (2) - 2 wires to it - part of 3 way

Keypad (3) - not part of 3 way whatsoever - programming Key 1

 

So the Keylink doesn't have the load going to it so I suspect that I actually need to create two different scenes to it......Scene 1 with both the SwitchLink (1) and SwitchLink (2) as both controllers and Scene 2 with the Keypad (3) Key 1 and the SwitchLink (2). Assuming I am correct here, do both have to be controllers in Scene 2????

 

Or am I completely wrong and need to do something else?

 

Thanks again for all your help guys.

[LeeG]

Insteon does not make a 3 way switch. One SwitchLinc physically controls the load, the other SwitchLinc and KeypadLinc are powered from unswitched 120v and linked to the SwitchLinc that is physically controlling the load. This requires changing the function provided by the wiring in a standard 3 way configuration.

 

One Scene is used, with the SwitchLinc 1, SwitchLinc 2, and the KeypadLinc button being Controllers in that one Scene.

[rgn2000]

Insteon does not make a 3 way switch. One SwitchLinc physically controls the load, the other SwitchLinc and KeypadLinc are powered from unswitched 120v and linked to the SwitchLinc that is physically controlling the load. This requires changing the function provided by the wiring in a standard 3 way configuration.

 

One Scene is used, with the SwitchLinc 1, SwitchLinc 2, and the KeypadLinc button being Controllers in that one Scene.

 

I am fully aware of this and that's not my issue. The issue lies in that the controllers are losing a connection. I am just calling it a 3 Way. I used "Load" wrong in my post because obviously SwithLink 2 doesn't have the load either. The difference is that the KeyLink does not share the same power source as two SwithLink's in the so called 3 way.

 

My question still holds....can I do this with one scene or do I need two scenes because the three of them aren't syncing.

[LeeG]

One Scene with the three devices as Controllers. The KeypadLinc being on a different circuit is fine. Each of the three devices can be on different circuits. Of course proper 120v phase coupling is required.

 

SceneX

SwitchLinc1 - Controller

SwitchLinc2 - Controller

KeypadLinc button - Controller

 

I reread the initial post. Is the Keypadlinc Dual band? The 99i 3.3.10 does not support Dual Band KeypadLincs.

[rgn2000]

It's a 2486SWH6 v5.4 1036. I don't see where is says dual band on SmartHome's page - http://www.smarthome.com/keypadlinc-relay-insteon-6-button-scene-control-keypad-with-on-off-switch-white.htmlEither way, I don't have one issue with the KeyPadLink as a controller utilizing the main On/Off switch. 

 

I have the scene setup just like you have it but either the SwitchLink 2 or the KeyPadLink 2 will lose the connection at some point. They get it back when I turn on or off the main SwitchLink 1. I don't get it. 

[LeeG]

That means poor Insteon comm between SwitchLinc2 and the KeypadLinc. What is being used to couple two 120v legs?

[rgn2000]

Not sure how to answer that question. Could you further elaborate? I am not an electrician by any stretch. The house is only 12 years old and the wiring for this area was done about 10 years ago.

[oberkc]

In addition to the likely possibility of communication issues, check for ON levels related to this scene.

 

From the admin panel, select and expand the scene.  Within the scene select one of the controllers and view ON levels for each of the other two devices.  Make sure none are zero.  Do the same for the other two controllers.

 

Regarding coupling the legs...this is normally performed by insteon dual-band devices.  How many do you have?  Have you ever performed the phase test described in the manuals for these devices?

 

One check for communication problems is the scene test performed by the ISY-994.  I believe you will find it under diagnostics.  Choose the three-device scene in question.  Run it a couple of times.  Does it indicate failure?

[LeeG]

Insteon requires some form is coupling between the 2 120v legs. This is required so that Insteon messages produced on one 120v leg are reproduced on the other 120v leg. This is commonly done with a pair of Access Points (now called Range Extenders), each plugged into a different 120v leg, so that messages on one 120v leg are sent via RF signal to the other 120v leg.

 

It sounds like the devices (SwitchLinc/KeypadLinc) are on opposite 120v legs so that Insteon messages are not reliable between the devices. Could also be some electrical noise interfering with communication between the devices.

[rgn2000]

I just got the 994, but haven't installed it yet. Still on the 99, so I can't run that test just yet.

 

As to the On levels, all are set to 100, it's non dimming anyway, but like I said everything works fine for a couple of rounds and then they lose the connection. What's weird is that they get re-connected when I turn on or off the SwitchLink with the load.

 

I have at least 10 dual band devices on my system and everything is properly phased. I checked that with the first 2 devices that I installed.

[LeeG]

The 99i has the same Scene Test capability as the 994i. This tests communication between the PLM and the devices in the Scene. Those results can be different than communicating device A to device B. If there is correct coupling then some form of interference is probable.

[rgn2000]

Wow, I did the test and got failures across the board.....

 

<html><font color="red">----- Neon Lights On Off At Bar Test Results -----</font></html>

<html><font color="red">[Failed]</font> Basement KeypadLincA (17 A5 57 3)</html>

<html><font color="red">[Failed]</font> Neon Signs - Master in Ceilin (19 F5 F0 1)</html>

<html><font color="red">[Failed]</font> Neon Lights - Switch at Bar (19 F5 F 1)</html>

Mon 10/20/2014 04:57:46 PM : [CLEAN-UP-RPT] 02 58 06 

Mon 10/20/2014 04:57:46 PM : [iNST-SRX    ] 02 50 17.A5.57 13.21.6A 61 13 11    LTOFFRR(11)

<html><font color="red">----- Neon Lights On Off At Bar Test Results -----</font></html>

Mon 10/20/2014 04:57:46 PM : [iNST-ACK    ] 02 62 00.00.11 CF 13 00 06          LTOFFRR(00)

 

[rgn2000]

I don't see how it can be my phases not coupled. I have a bunch of switchlinks that are dual band. Doesn't that couple the phases?

[LeeG]

Having multiple Dual Band devices does not insure that there is good coupling. Many of the SwitchLincs can be on the same phase. Also the ones that are on opposite phases must be able to talk reliably with a device on the other phase.

 

Device A may be able to talk to device B and device C but device B and device C not be able to talk reliably to each other.

 

Disconnect the physical load and see if the Neon lights are causing a problem.

[rgn2000]

Disconnect the load from which one? The Switchlinc 2?

 

Right now I have 9 dual band switchlincs and one dual band plug in outlet. 

 

I forget how to figure out the phases on my panel (it was a long time ago), but the left side of the panel starts with phase 1 and below that is phase 2 then phase 1 and so on this is that I have

 

1 Plugin outlet - Phase 2

 

6 SwitchLinks - Phase 2

 

3 SwitchLinks - Phase 1

 

The KeypadLink is Phase 2 and the Neon lights in question are on Phase 1

 

Do I have too many on Phase 2?

 

My feeling was always that if the phased weren't bridged than I wouldn't be able to see all the devices in the ISY99 or would even be able to connect to anything via controller or receiver, but I guess that's not the case.

 

I remember when I was given my first lamp module as a gift, I couldn't get it to communicate at all since the phases weren't bridged, but then I got my first 2 switchlincs and put them on opposite phases and everything was okay. I figured I was all set. I guess not.

[oberkc]

I don't see how it can be my phases not coupled.

 

Have a certain number of devices is no guarantee.  If you have not performed the test in the manual, I would not be confident.

 

My feeling was always that if the phased weren't bridged than I wouldn't be able to see all the devices in the ISY99 or would even be able to connect to anything via controller or receiver, but I guess that's not the case.

 

In my experience, this is not the case.  Sometimes they can see each other on opposite legs, but the communication may be weak and easily disruptible. 

[oberkc]

Disconnect the load from which one?

 

I believe the suggestion was to disconnect the neon lights from whatever device is powering them.

[LeeG]

oberkc reflects what I was suggesting.

 

With your followup question as to which switch to disconnect, there is SwitchLinc1, SwitchLinc2 and a KPL button. Which devices are physically controlling a load (Red wire not capped)?

[stusviews]

Just having devices on opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply does not guarantee that they are communicating using RF, although the chances are pretty good that they are. Unfortunately, "pretty good" is not good enough. In order to be sure you must use the 4-tap test. It's also best to run the test in both directions.