Is the PLM considered a dual band device?

[416to305]

Sorry if this is a dumb question.  I have the ISY and the PLM in my basement in the laundry room with my other networking and server gear.  I used to have a Switchlinc 4 floors up on the 3rd floor master bedroom, and as such devices worked fine anywhere in the house that were RF.  Made some changes, so now the PLM is still in the basement but the Switchlincs are all on the first floor only.  The second floor has 1 Dimmerlinc plug in module, and then the 3rd floor bedroom has an LED bulb and a Remotelinc 2.  The devices work for the most part, but maybe 1 in 5 times the LED bulb won't respond, and the Remotelinc 2 only responds maybe 1 in 5 times.

 

If I move the ISY and PLM up to say the 2nd floor or even the master, does the PLM do RF as well so that having it up there would help with the dead area?  Or do only plug in and switch modules etc support RF?  Just a pain to move it so rather ask than test first and find out it doesn't do it.  Thanks!

[Mike Ippolito]

The PLM is dual band. Best architecture practices are to minimize hops to Insteon devices to less than 3 hops and ensure that you have covered both phases of the electrical service with a dual-band device.  Try to keep dual band devices or access points within 30' of wireless only devices. 

 

Therefore, you may keep your PLM in the basement but adding a dual band device near the PLM on the second phase will allow your entire house to accurately receive the signal. This way for devices on the second phase you will use one hop from PLM to dual band device then you have up to two hops to get to the LED bulb. 

[416to305]

Okay thanks.  I thought that the dimmer lamp module would be sufficient but it only helped a little having it on the 2nd floor.  I just tried moving the PLM upstairs anyway and it does seem to help so probably will leave it there since all it really needs is an Ethernet jack as right now it's basically in the middle of the house vs the basement where it's much farther from the 3rd floor.

[LeeG]

A 2413 PLM is Dual Band.  A 2412 PLM is powerline only, not Dual Band.   The 2412 is no longer sold by Smarthome but you could have a 2412 PLM if using Insteon for years.

 

Before moving ISY and PLM consider adding Range Extenders (Access Points) to the 2nd and third floors.

Edited November 11, 2014 by LeeG

[416to305]

I have a 2413S I moved it to try and it did help but then the garage door wouldn't work anymore, so moved it back downstairs.  Question though can I use the Insteon Hub as an extender?  It's just sitting here doing nothing.  Can't add it to the ISY, but I can manually add it to the PLM and vice versa.  I tried that making each other a controller/responder of one another and they successfully linked.  Just wondering if plugging the Hub in somewhere on the 3rd floor would relay commands or if it would serve no purpose?

[stusviews]

Any dual-band device serves as a range extender for RF. Any INSTEON device at all serves as a powerline range extender.

[Teken]

I have a 2413S I moved it to try and it did help but then the garage door wouldn't work anymore, so moved it back downstairs.  Question though can I use the Insteon Hub as an extender?  It's just sitting here doing nothing.  Can't add it to the ISY, but I can manually add it to the PLM and vice versa.  I tried that making each other a controller/responder of one another and they successfully linked.  Just wondering if plugging the Hub in somewhere on the 3rd floor would relay commands or if it would serve no purpose?

 

I am unsure if the HUB sitting there would actually couple anything. But, give it a try and report back what the results are. I would be pretty surprised if it coupled / bridged Insteon devices with out something enrolled into the controller.

 

A simple test would be to plug it in and see if any traffic is picked up via the LED's. I don't own one so don't know if it has LED's that reflect the insteon traffic as it does on other devices.

[416to305]

It doesn't seem to work but it's interesting because when I would try to add a LED bulb or Remotelinc from my 3rd floor bedroom, where the closest plug in module was 1 floor down, it never would work and always would fail.  So I linked the Hub to the PLM (can't add it to the ISY never works), and when I'd try to add the LED or Remotelinc, the Hub would flash non stop showing Insteon traffic, however it still would never work or add the devices, so must not work.  I then moved one of my KPLs from the first floor (I swear, if I have to move and rewire one more light switch I'm going to lose my mind.) and now the LED and the Remotelinc add immediately no problems at all.  So yeah doesn't seem like it does anything.

[Teken]

It doesn't seem to work but it's interesting because when I would try to add a LED bulb or Remotelinc from my 3rd floor bedroom, where the closest plug in module was 1 floor down, it never would work and always would fail.  So I linked the Hub to the PLM (can't add it to the ISY never works), and when I'd try to add the LED or Remotelinc, the Hub would flash non stop showing Insteon traffic, however it still would never work or add the devices, so must not work.  I then moved one of my KPLs from the first floor (I swear, if I have to move and rewire one more light switch I'm going to lose my mind.) and now the LED and the Remotelinc add immediately no problems at all.  So yeah doesn't seem like it does anything.

 

This is what I expected to happen to be honest. Thanks for taking the time to test and follow up. I can assure you countless thousands of people know exactly how you feel about taking out a switch and doing the exact same thing 9999999999 later on. 

 

As stated in another thread I highly suggest when you're inclined to expand your Insteon network. That you purchase either a AP / Range Extender, or one of the On / Off, Dimmer plug in modules and ensure you confirm proper coupling / bridging.

 

This will provide you the most consistent performance, range, and reliability. Its never fun to install a piece of gear in a remote location when you know it will not be used actively vs being used as a remote switch etc.

 

But, rest assured once you have coupled all floors, areas, zones, these thoughts will be gone besides the lighter wallet! 

[416to305]

I'm so glad I'm switching back from Z-Wave.  Everything is just so much easier with the ISY and the Insteon stuff all just works so much better.  Teken, when you say to get range extenders etc, are you aware of what I have right now?  Can't remember if I mentioned that anywhere, but I do have some of the devices you mentioned like plug in dimmers so thought I was doing good so far!  

 

My house is 3 stories (3rd is basically just the master bedroom) and then finished basement.  Right now what I have is:

 

Basement:

LED Bulb

Motion Sensor

(They are linked together as a scene and never controlled by anything else, so not even really an issue)

 

First Floor:

ISY and PLM

2 x KPLs one on either end of the house

2 x Switchlinc both in the middle of the house

LampLinc Dimmer plug in module

Garage IOLinc in the Garage, detached from the house by about 15 feet

LED Bulb outside garage

2 x Motion Sensors

2 x Hidden Door Sensors

 

Second Floor:

LampLinc Dimmer plug in module

 

Third Floor:

KPL

2 x LED Bulb

RemoteLinc 2

 

Adding the KPL to the 3rd floor fixed all issues up there with connectivity.  I'm debating on ditching Vera for the ISY Z-Wave module only if someone tells me Z-Wave locks are better, otherwise I might ditch all my Z-Wave stuff which is basically right now 2 Switches on the first floor, 1 on the second floor with a motion sensor, 2 appliance outdoor type plug in devices, to turn xmas lights on etc not really anywhere right now, and then a switch in the master bedroom.

[oberkc]

I'm debating on ditching Vera for the ISY Z-Wave module only if someone tells me Z-Wave locks are better,

 

I used the insteon morninglinc with the matching lock set.  I now have a z-wave lock.  I prefer how my z-wave lock, unlike the morning lock, sends out status changes.  I also find the z-wave lock to respond more reliably (near 100%).

[stusviews]

Of the devices you  listed, only the following have a possibility of being dual-band:

 

First Floor:

PLM

2 x KPLs one on either end of the house

2 x Switchlinc both in the middle of the house

LampLinc Dimmer plug in module

 

Second Floor:

LampLinc Dimmer plug in module

 

Third Floor:

KPL

 

Whether they are, in fact, dual-band depends mostly on when they were purchased. What are each device's type number?

[dbuss]

I've not used Morning Industries locks so I can't comment on those. I have four Z-Wave locks that have worked great. The status reporting was the deal maker for me. My wife tells everyone how great the keyless locks are.

[Teken]

I agree with Stu.

 

You need to call out how many devices are dual band. As stated I do prefer to use AP / range extenders for coupling both sides of the electrical feed.

 

After that Insteon devices are simply placed where ever they are required.

 

 

Encrypted By: Phoenix Security Solutions

[416to305]

Thanks!  I know which are dual band, I just was writing everything I had to see if it was necessary .  How do I know about the sides of the feed?  Like I have a normal circuit breaker with I don't know going by memory 20-30 breakers on each side.  Are the sides of the panel the side of the feed?  With the 5 wired KPL/switchlincs that I have, I'm pretty sure at least both sides should be covered as they are all over the place, then I have 2 LampLinc plugin dimmers also and the GarageLinc as well.  So even without knowing how to tell the sides of the feed, I'd make a guess that I have at least 1 device at minimum on one of the sides.  Is there any utility or program or ISY command etc that would map out my network or run some kind of test that I could report back with that might indicate problem areas?  Like everything works fine right now, I turn a light on and it comes on etc.  The only one thing I do notice, which I just assumed was normal, is if I do a program where it's something like making a KPL button flash so the program is like "Start Scene A" wait 1 second "Stop Scene A" wait 1 second "Start Scene A" wait 1 second "Stop Scene A", etc it usually isn't correct.  Like the KPL light comes on for a second or so, maybe turns off for like 2 seconds, flashes on for half a second like it's catching up, then off again.  I just assumed it was because 1 second was too low for the network to deliver those messages, as 2 seconds works fine.  I guess what I'm just getting at is could that be an indication of dead zones or network trouble?  Like should it actually do it as expected, flash on and off every second?  Or is it like I said, hard to do with time since the first Scene On message might take one path but the second Scene On message takes another etc?  Thanks!

[LeeG]

The 120v legs alternate vertically.  On the left side, vertically,

 

Left side

 

leg 1

leg 2

leg 1

leg 2

leg 1

.

.

 

 

Right side

 

leg 2

leg 1

leg 2

leg 1

leg 2

.

.

.

 

The Program sequence could be something like this

 

Then

Repeat 10 times

  Set Scene 'x' On

  Wait 1 second

  Set Scene 'x' Off

  Wait 1 second 

 

 

The action should be very predictable.   If it is not consistent then that is another symptom of poor comm.

[416to305]

When you say they alternate vertically and then say left side right side, are you referring to the panel?  Where there's 20 or so breakers down the left and 20 on the right, so on the left side breaker 1 is leg 1, breaker 2 is leg 2 etc?  Meaning have some devices connected some on leg 1 and some leg 2 ideally?  Am I understanding that correctly?

 

I didn't even think to do a repeat in the program, that's much easier than me writing turn it on turn it off turn it on, etc 10 times lol.

[LeeG]

The way to determine how the electrician distributed the house electrical load is to tap the PLM Set button 4 times.  That puts the PLM into RF test mode.  Check how the various Dual Band devices react by watching the device status LED.   The device reaction varies based on the device firmware.  Later devices will blink Red when the device is on the same 120v leg as the PLM and blink Green when on the opposite 120v leg.  Some devices will blink bright White if on the opposite 120v leg.  The User Guide for each device covers how the device reacts.

[oberkc]

Thanks!  I know which are dual band, I just was writing everything I had to see if it was necessary .  How do I know about the sides of the feed?  Like I have a normal circuit breaker with I don't know going by memory 20-30 breakers on each side.  Are the sides of the panel the side of the feed?  With the 5 wired KPL/switchlincs that I have, I'm pretty sure at least both sides should be covered as they are all over the place, then I have 2 LampLinc plugin dimmers also and the GarageLinc as well.  So even without knowing how to tell the sides of the feed, I'd make a guess that I have at least 1 device at minimum on one of the sides.  Is there any utility or program or ISY command etc that would map out my network or run some kind of test that I could report back with that might indicate problem areas?  Like everything works fine right now, I turn a light on and it comes on etc.  The only one thing I do notice, which I just assumed was normal, is if I do a program where it's something like making a KPL button flash so the program is like "Start Scene A" wait 1 second "Stop Scene A" wait 1 second "Start Scene A" wait 1 second "Stop Scene A", etc it usually isn't correct.  Like the KPL light comes on for a second or so, maybe turns off for like 2 seconds, flashes on for half a second like it's catching up, then off again.  I just assumed it was because 1 second was too low for the network to deliver those messages, as 2 seconds works fine.  I guess what I'm just getting at is could that be an indication of dead zones or network trouble?  Like should it actually do it as expected, flash on and off every second?  Or is it like I said, hard to do with time since the first Scene On message might take one path but the second Scene On message takes another etc?  Thanks!

No need to guess. Furthermore, even if you correctly identify the legs of you electrical system and confirm devices on both, how do you know they are communicating prerly to perform this function.

 

Better is to break out the manuals for your devices and look for instructions on performing the phase bridging test. This will give you a positive confirmation (or not). As far as I know, it is the only way to have near certainty that your devices are communicating across legs of your electrical system.

[416to305]

Awesome thanks!  Glad there's ways to actually test it.  Was hoping it wasn't a matter of just knowing and moving devices around hoping for the best lol.  Especially since things mostly seem to work fine right now so hard to compare if it's working perfect or not.  

 

I tried the 4 press on the PLM test.  Didn't check all devices but on the first floor all my switches on the wall flash red, as does a lamplinc on the 2nd floor.  The lamplinc on the first floor flashes green so I assume that means it's separate.  The KPLs don't do anything same with the Garage IOLinc they just sit there so I'll check those books.  I'll also check to see about the bridging test.

 

The links in here are outdated but found this which seems helpful http://support.cortexa.com/portal/cortexasupport/ViewAttachment.do?blockId=fb53d1857186cf1f919b76d0252aa4a91559198a4dcd9882&fileName=InsteonBridgingPhases.pdf&zgId=15e427a70defa0cb&downloadType=uploadedFile&isSupAttach=true

Edited November 12, 2014 by 416to305

[416to305]

I think I'm a bit lost still lol.  Like I'm doing all the tests and I'll post the results after, but they sort of change sometimes.  Like it seems the KPL x 2 and Switchlinc x 2 on the main floor are all on the same one, with the KPL in the master bedroom on another, but it's weird because for example if I put the KPL in the master bedroom into the test mode, the LampLinc on the 2nd floor (literally 15 feet away) does nothing.  If however I put that same LampLinc into test mode, then the KPL in the master flashes all lights on and off over and over.  Maybe I'll make a chart after showing what happens when I put each device into test mode.  Where I'm just confused though is based on what I'm finding, there's a lot of devices on one phase possibly 4-6, and then just 2 on the other phase.  Shouldn't that be enough to have everything covered though?  Or when I put the master KPL into test mode and the LampLinc on the 2nd floor doesn't respond, but the KPL does if the LampLinc is in test mode, would that be an indication right there that there's an issue, as in should all powerline devices respond when one goes into test mode assuming they are all connected properly?

[oberkc]

I tried the 4 press on the PLM test.  Didn't check all devices but on the first floor all my switches on the wall flash red, as does a lamplinc on the 2nd floor.  The lamplinc on the first floor flashes green so I assume that means it's separate.  The KPLs don't do anything same with the Garage IOLinc they just sit there so I'll check those books.  I'll also check to see about the bridging test.

Green is good. I believe it also good to check the opposite direction. Initiate the test from the first floor lamplinc and see if your PLM shows green.

 

The KPLs and IOLinc may not be dual-band, so no indication expected.

[LeeG]

The I/O Linc is not Dual Band, powerline only.

 

The latest KPLs are Dual Band. Earlier KPLs are not Dual Band. I have several KPLs installed (over ten) which are powerline only.

 

If necessary remove the device from the box (leave connected) and look at the label on the back of the device to see if labeled Dual Band.

 

The first thing to understand is how the Dual Band devices react to the PLM. That will show how well the PLM coverage as far as RF. I have a functional house with no RF usage for basic function, except good RF phase coupling so RF is not an absolute. It certainly does help to get to some areas. How does the PLM communication work.

Edited November 12, 2014 by LeeG

[LeeG]

Also note the latest KPL Dimmers DO NOT indicate the ability to generate the RF test message. This would mean they respond to another devices RF beacon but cannot generate one. That may explain why the LampLiinc does not respond to the KPL.

[Teken]

Also note the latest KPL Dimmers DO NOT indicate the ability to generate the RF test message. This would mean they respond to another devices RF beacon but cannot generate one. That may explain why the LampLiinc does not respond to the KPL.

 

I believe this is one of many reasons why so many people get confused about confirming bridging / coupling. Since various iterations even with in the same manufactured date either have new features or those removed.

 

Case in point the users manual indicates the KPL Relay can perform the beacon test. Where as the eight button KPL dimmer does not, but does offer that the unit can be programmed to indicate a red LED if the end device(s) do not respond.

 

Even though the error (Red) LED is not the same as the beacon test. It does offer some visual confirmation that COM's are good, or did not get received.