Is the PLM considered a dual band device?

[stusviews]

Opposite legs alternate vertically, but circuit breakers on the same horizontal level are on the same leg.

 

1     1

2     2

1     1

2     2

1     1

 

Note: Standard breakers use a 1" space. Half-height breakers alternate legs in pairs (i.e., adjacent breakers are on the same leg). Yoked breakers span both legs.

[416to305]

Thanks guys, I'm just waiting for a KPL to be delivered today to test it, but I've drawn out a floor plan of the house with all the dual band devices and done the tests on them.  I'm not really sure what it accomplishes though.  I'll scan the image after once I get the KPL, but basically it's showing that:

 

First Floor: PLM, SwitchLinc, SwitchLinc, GarageLinc IOLinc are all on one phase (we'll call it phase 1).  LampLinc plug in dimmer, and a KPL are on phase 2.

 

Second Floor: LampLinc plug in dimmer is on phase 1.

 

Third Floor: KPL is on phase 1

 

So I don't know what that means lol.  Like most are on phase 1, with nothing on phase 2 on the 2nd or 3rd floor.  The outlet in my basement where I used to have the PLM I tested with a LampLinc and it is on phase 2.  I was having issues where the GarageLinc wouldn't work properly at all, but moving the PLM upstairs where it's on phase 1 now seemed to resolve that issue.  I guess where I'm confused is the only place I seem to possibly have any issues, is on the 3rd floor.  The KPL if set to turn on and off every second, is a bit slow sometimes, like on 2 seconds, off half a second, on half a second, off a full second, on a full second, etc.  Or the RemoteLinc sometimes you have to press it twice to turn the LED bulb on in my lamp (happens maybe 1 in 15 times).

 

Quick edit, just uploaded the floor plan quick, super rough obv but gave up trying to do it on the computer since this took 2 mins.  Dimensions are just rough, but the first and second floor are basically 20 x 40 feet or so, then the garage is separate from the house by maybe 15 feet in the back yard.  The 3rd floor is probably half the size of the other floors, then the basement is the same 20x40 as well but there's no dual band devices down there so just ignored it.

 

The KPL on the left on floor 1 is the one I'm installing today so not sure what it is on, but guessing 1 as well as it seems there's pretty much 2 breakers I use when changing the lights, maybe 3 actually.  I'll post once I get that KPL.  Obviously as well there's more outlets throughout the house and switches where I could move things but the way I have it right now is mostly good, as the 2nd floor is mostly Z-Wave same with the 3rd.  So only observation I'd see is that there's nothing with phase 2 on the 2nd or 3rd floor.  So just still not clear on what benefit there is to say adding another LampLinc or something to the 2nd or 3rd floor that's on phase 2.  Or is the goal to ideally have a mix of phase 1 and 2 on both floors?  Just looking at floor 1 I'm not sure how many other phase 2 devices I could put as there's only 1 lamp here, then all switches aside from 2 are Insteon with the other 2 being Z-Wave and on the same circuit as the phase 1 switches anyway.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

[LeeG]

What devices are Dual Band?

 

When the PLM was put into RF test mode what Dual Band devices responded and how did they respond? Was the Dual Band device response consistent giving the appearance of good RF reception?

 

Are the wall boxes metal?

 

Are all the issues with the I/O Linc in garage resolved with move of ISY/PLM?

 

There is no need to have devices powered from phase 2 on 2nd and 3rd floors just to have something on phase 2 on those floors.

Edited November 13, 2014 by LeeG

[Teken]

Regardless of what you read from the literature via the SH site. The reality is that all of this assumes the best case scenario. Meaning you simply have wires connecting to other wires in the home.

 

Coupling both sides of the electrical feed via a dual band unit will assist in bridging the COM's so the Insteon signal can traverse from one to the other assuming it needs to talk to another Insteon device(s).

 

Now, you add in real world loads from LED, CFL, Ballasts, Motors, Resistive loads, where it either makes noise or sucks the Insteon signal from getting threw.

 

The point being is having dual band devices in all foors, areas, zones, phase, will ensure Insteon COM's are adequate. Keeping in mind as stated before no amount of Insteon devices, bridging, will over come a noise issue.

[416to305]

All the ones in the photo are dual band (no device in my network is older than 2 months).  LL is a LampLinc, SL is SwitchLinc, PLM is that, KPL is KeyPadLinc, and GL is GarageLinc.  I can add the RF only devices if that helps at all, like on the 3rd floor is a LED bulb in the shower, but whenever I start up the admin console it always says Cannot Communicate with Shower LED.  So seems something is up there.

 

It's pretty easy to figure out which is which by doing the test.  If you put the PLM in test mode, any that flash red are on the same phase, with green being another.  The KPLs if on another phase don't respond.  If they are on the same phase then all 4 of their buttons flash.  So when I'd put the PLM in test mode, the SwitchLinc's, LampLinc on the 2nd floor, and KPL on the 3rd floor all flash red (KPL flashes white).  If I put the KPL in the first floor in test mode, the LampLinc on the first floor also flashes red to indicate they are on the same phase etc.  You can also test the KPLs easily by putting them in test mode and seeing how everything else responds.  Putting the first floro KPL in test mod as well causes the SwitchLinc's and so on to flash green, meaning they are on a separate phase.

 

So are you saying that ideally I should have at least 1 more device on floor 2 and 3 that are phase 2?  Challenge is that there's no where that I really want any other devices so would be just buying a range extender vs something that does dual purpose which is too bad.  I wish there was an easy way to test phase on existing light switches as I'd definitely add more SwitchLinc's to the second floor, but that means removing my Z-Wave ones, so don't want to do all that just to find they are still phase 1 as well, which I assume they are as most lights that have SwitchLinc or Z-Wave on them right now are on the same breaker.  One alone turns off half the basement, most of the first floor, the 2nd floor bathroom, and the 3rd floor bathroom.

 

Just again lastly to confirm, there's no where on the ISY I can do some kind of test right where it actually gives me a numerical result?  Like tries to send a command 100 times to a device and reports how many times it failed etc?

Edited November 13, 2014 by 416to305

[Teken]

You have several methods but isn't exactly what you're asking for. You can run the diagnostic at level 3 and see how many hops it takes etc. You can do a scene test which basically turns on / off the linked devices in that scene which obviously shows you the linked devices either work or don't and you can watch the diagnostic page while this is happening.

 

You can also down load a free copy of House Linc (HL) which has a great diagnostic feature that you can define how many signal blasts and for how any times and watch the results. Please keep in mind I offered this as a alternate method to diagnose your homes Insteon network.

 

Its not intended to remain there and operational as it can cause major havok to the existing links in the devices and to those associated to the ISY.

 

With respect to the LED light.

 

Do you have a Insteon Bulb Linc??

 

If so I am assuming its allowed to be remained powered? If not it won't operate as its intended for pull chain lights or where there is no actual switch to turn the power on / off.

 

This device must remain powered to use.

 

I also noted you indicated the garage linc?? Are you talking about the I/O Linc? This device is not a dual band device its simply power line only.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Teken

[416to305]

Thanks I'll check HouseLinc I have it already just not using it.  Well the bulb is the Insteon LED Bulb, I don't think they call it Bulb Linc?  It's the Insteon one, and yeah the switch was off.  I prob won't keep it there but I used to have a Switchlinc in the room and no one ever turns the shower light on just because it's not really necessary, but it looks much nicer when on.  So I had made a scene to turn it on when you turn the switchlinc on.  I must have turned it off when I put the wall cover back on yesterday after finally deciding I was done changing this section around.

 

And yes I mean the IO Linc, I call it Garage linc because Insteon calls it the "I/O Linc Garage Door Control and Status Kit".  I know that it's not RF but what would that matter?  Shouldn't it be more reliable being powerline only?  What I was saying was when I had the PLM in the basement on phase 2 (where the IO Linc is phase 1), it would not add to the ISY no matter what I'd try, even though when I had the ISY a month or so ago it worked fine.  Only when I moved the PLM upstairs and also had it on phase 1 would it actually add and work.  I was just adding it here to find out what phase it is on.  Been fine ever since then.

 

I guess what still is confusing to me, is as you can see I have basically 3 dual band devices on phase 1 on the first floor, and then 2 that are phase 2 (with a KPL coming soon that will be one of them as well) so pretty covered.  The second and third floors are phase 1 only.  So is it more that ideally we want traffic to be able to take both paths or phases, so having another lamplinc on the second floor or second and third which is on phase 2 would be more beneficial as each area of the house would then be covered by both phases?

[LeeG]

There is no need to add devices to 2nd and 3rd floor on phase 2. Would serve no purpose. The existing devices on 2nd and 3rd floors are Dual Band which will support coupling a future device on phase 2 on those floors if one is added in the future. Again, no need to install a device on phase 2 on 2nd and 3rd floors just to have something on phase 2.

 

The Insteon LED Bulb would not respond if not powered so that is not a problem.

 

Are the boxes in the walls metal?

 

The I/O Linc should be reliable. If not that is an area to look into. It not being Dual Band could make it more exposed to powerline issues as that is the only communication path.

Edited November 13, 2014 by LeeG

[416to305]

Oh sorry, they are metal wall boxes.  Are there options other than metal?  Don't think I've ever seen something other than metal.

[LeeG]

That depends on local electrical code. Some require metal boxes, some do not. My geographic area does not require or use metal boxes. The reason for asking is a metal box reduces the coverage of the RF signal for a device in a metal box. It could require the use of a pair of plug-able Range Extenders for good RF coverage. That is likely why the PLM in the basement would not reach the I/O Linc at times because of marginal RF coupling.

Edited November 13, 2014 by LeeG

[Teken]

Oh sorry, they are metal wall boxes.  Are there options other than metal?  Don't think I've ever seen something other than metal.

 

Since you live in Canada most homes use metal JBOX's. After market box's can be purchased (Carlton) which are made of resin / fiberglass plastics. 

 

At Home Depot / Lowes / Rona they are special order if you need them.

 

My point regarding the installation of extra devices on different floors is from experience. Now, keep in mind you and I don't have money to burn so I am not asking you to just wild willy purchase something that won't be used.

 

The reality is RF from insteon devices are marginal when placed in a standard metal enclosure. It doesn't help that Smartlabs insists upon placing the freaking antenna in the rear of the unit also!

 

That is why having a few (plug In) dual band units that (you may have future use) can dramatically increase the reliability of your Insteon network. At the end of the day only you can decide to deploy more gear in areas you feel will see use, or even daily use. 

[416to305]

Yeah that all makes sense.  Definitely in no hurry to change my wall boxes!  The builders didn't even put wall boxes in for any of the bathroom lights, so had to do that before even installing new lights there which was a pain.  So far everything right now is working fine though and I'll still be adding more devices.

 

It's interesting though like I said how when I had the cheap $29 Z-Wave switches on the first floor only, and would trigger a plug in module in the 3rd floor bedroom, it would work instantly every time (nothing in between, just 4 switches first floor, then the plug in 3rd floor).  I always thought Insteon was better since it is dual band, so in my mind I'd feel like Z-Wave was less reliable.  But it seems like the RF strength and what not on Z-Wave seems to be a bit more robust or what not.  Still prefer Insteon though and glad I switched back.

Edited November 13, 2014 by 416to305

[Teken]

The approach Z-Wave has taken is different so keep that in mind. Their RF output is more than likely rated at the maximum or close to what is allowed under FCC regulations. Insteon (on the surface) appears to have some flaws in their deployment of the same.

 

- Limited RF output when compared to other makers.

 

- Poor placement of the RF antenna which impacts signal strength.

 

- Different frequency which plays a role in distance, noise rejection, etc.

 

- Device sensitivity of capturing the RF signal. With Z wave all their devices are made to be as sensitive to receive RF as that is

their only method to communicate.

 

At the end of the day a pound of salt must be taken when considering this whole dual band marketing.

[416to305]

Yeah that definitely makes sense.  I think both work just as well and just as reliably.  I was expecting Z-Wave to be terrible the way you have to put the Vera within 3 feet of a device to pair it and so on, but haven't had any issues.  The issues I do have are more with the switches and because I have the smaller bulbs which are LED and can't dim, so with my switches the ramp rate is 2-3 seconds which can't be changed.  So when I press off on a device on my phone, it seems like there's a couple second delay turning it off when really I think it's just dimming down but the LED can't do it.  Turning lights on is instant though for some reason so who knows.

 

As a side note, I did a test on the 3rd floor and every outlet and switch is Phase 1, so there's no way to even put a device on Phase 2 up there.

[Teken]

Well the plus side is that you shouldn't have any issue then. Since they are on the same leg, keeping in mind this in no way addresses any noise related issues that may be present.

[Brian H]

I believe that ZWave uses a very low RF level when pairing devices. For security concerns and a higher RF level in normal everyday use.

When I was trying out some surplus  Intermatic Homesettings modules. The manuals said you had to have the device and controller very close. For security concerns.

 

The ZWave modules I have. Put their RF antennas on the back side of the front faceplate. Not all the way on the back of the module like the Insteon ones.

[416to305]

Oh that makes sense for security.  I installed the 2nd KPL downstairs in the living room and it's also Phase 1.  So almost my entire house is Phase 1, hunting to find anything on 2.  As a side note, on my 3rd floor as mentioned just has a KPL, and then 2 LED bulbs, and RemoteLinc.  Earlier I was trying to add the one LED bulb to a scene with the KPL and it would fail, couldn't find it or connect to it.  So I went to the 2nd floor and took the LampLinc, plugged it in up on the 3rd floor, and the LED bulb updated immediately.  So I then swapped the LED bulb in the lamp here with the LampLinc, and put the LED bulb in the lamp on the 2nd floor.  Then I did a test scene to make a KPL button on the 3rd floor flash on and off every second.  As mentioned way back, I'd have issues doing that such as coming on for 2 seconds, off for half a second, flashes super fast, etc.  After moving the LampLinc up here, I did that same test and it flashes perfectly now, exactly every second with no lag or anything.

[stusviews]

So almost my entire house is Phase 1, hunting to find anything on 2.

Electricity is supplied to homes as a split, single-phase electric supply. About half of the circuits are on each of the two opposite legs or sides (often incorrectly referred to as phases). It wold be very, very unusual to be as off balance as you describe. Are you checking both lighting and receptacle outlets-everywhere?

[416to305]

Oh I just mean where I happen to have Insteon gear all seems to be Phase 1.  There's lots of Phase 2, they just all are rooms like the guest room, guest bathroom, gym, laundry room, outlet behind the couch, areas where I don't have a need for anything to go there.  It's pretty easy to test with a LampLinc since it's so mobile, just go outlet to outlet and see what it does.  Flash red it's on the same as the test device, and green it's opposite.