dpmenzer Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 I would like to be able to send the status from my Insteon Smoke Bridge to the Elk system, but it appears the only way to do that is via an IOlink to an Elk input. Is there a more elegant way to do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 You can have the Isy trigger a zone open via a program. Also, some people use this kind of device as well (this one for First Alert smokes): http://www.amazon.com/BRK-RM4-Smoke-Alarm-Accessory/dp/B0039PF21U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1419474391&sr=8-1. Personally, I wouldn't rely on an iolinc for a safety of life system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shannong Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 First, it's important to understand that most local fire codes will not allow for monitoring and response (by the local FD) to an unsupervised smoke alarm, which the First Alerts One-Links are not supervised. As long as your system isn't externally monitored and the FD summoned, those codes don't apply. All of my First Alerts are wireless except for one. I used one wired First Alert One-link and used the orange interconnect wire to trigger a relay. That relay closes/opens a zone on my Elk. That wired First Alert is powered by the same UPS that powers my Elk so I know both will be working should there be a power less at the same time as or related to a fire. The drawback is that if the relay quits working at any point in time you won't know it since it doesn't have a supervisory function of any kind. Regular testing helps with this obviously but still lacks the function of supervised smokes on a security system like the Elk. I later realized it could all be done programmatically. You can write a program that says If SmokeBridge is On Then Set Elk Keypad Press F1 You just need a F-key programmed on your key pad to trigger Fire alarm, which you should have for safety purposes to manually trigger an alarm quickly and easily. Using the F-key press is easy and clean to setup without a wired First Alert, relay, etc. However, it relies solely upon Insteon communications to function and therefore power to your house. Insteon isn't all that reliable to begin with and in the event of fire could be much worse. With the One-Link wireless signal and one wired First Alert, I think communications reliability is better. It also takes the ISY out of the equation as a potential component failure, likely during a fire. Much like MWareman above stated, I suggest that Insteon is not a reliable technology for life saving events. So keep that in mind when building functionality with the Smoke Bridge, IOlinc, etc with fire and security. Of course, your individual alarms will still sound but regardless just something to keep in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmenzer Posted December 26, 2014 Author Share Posted December 26, 2014 Thanks, Those are 2 good suggestions I'll have to try. I'm aware the FD doesn't like false alarms, so I will set up the system appropriately! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shannong Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Thanks, Those are 2 good suggestions I'll have to try. I'm aware the FD doesn't like false alarms, so I will set up the system appropriately! Dave I wanted to be clear on this point. The issue isn't annoyance or potential fine for false alarm. It is ILLEGAL to allow unsupervised smokes such as these First Alert One-Links to trigger a security alarm monitored for response by the local FD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 It is ILLEGAL to allow unsupervised smokes such as these First Alert One-Links to trigger a security alarm monitored for response by the local FD.Federal/State or Local ordinance? Can you quote the code? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shannong Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 In short, no. All such codes are state and local ordinances and as such the actual code would vary with each city and state. So quoting code would provide no value anyways. In doing my research when my putting together my system I found many discussions by professional installers discussing this with DIY'ers. If you're interested, I'd expect Google will turn up something easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Digger Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 The NFPA states wireless initiating devices be supervised and a trouble annunciated within 200 seconds on the FACP. It was 4 hours and most devices out there still are 4 hours. There is some pushback on the new requirement because of clash issues in the rf freq. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Does NFPA have anything to say when the smokes are 100% wired though? I suspect the requirement for supervision is required only for wireless systems - or even only for commercial installations. At the end of the day, residential wired smokes are not 'monitored' either - if you sever the orange wire you end up with a system where smoke detected at one station does not sound all smokes. I know this is not allowed for commercial - but is for residential systems. I believe that the relay I linked to is intended to drive a strobe for the hearing impaired in a residential (non-monitored) system. I'm trying to figure out the code issues if I have the relay drive a smoke zone on my monitored ELK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Digger Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Does NFPA have anything to say when the smokes are 100% wired though? I suspect the requirement for supervision is required only for wireless systems - or even only for commercial installations. At the end of the day, residential wired smokes are not 'monitored' either - if you sever the orange wire you end up with a system where smoke detected at one station does not sound all smokes. I know this is not allowed for commercial - but is for residential systems. I believe that the relay I linked to is intended to drive a strobe for the hearing impaired in a residential (non-monitored) system. I'm trying to figure out the code issues if I have the relay drive a smoke zone on my monitored ELK. Conventional Wired detectors are definitely supervised for opens and ground faults. Signal Line Circuits are supervised for opens, shorts and ground faults. Any of those conditions must indicate a trouble on the FACP Within 200 seconds on a commercial system but time is not defined for Residential that I remember. Been years since I did a Residential panel evaluation. What you described are Smoke Alarms not Smoke Detectors connected to a FACP that reports to a Central Station. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I'm talking about residential wired smoke alarms only..... and trying to determine the code requirements. They are definitely NOT monitored - disconnecting the yellow does not alert any alarm. Disconnecting the love simply silences that alarm (well, technically, it goes over to battery). There is different, and far more strict code involved (as you say) with smoke detectors designed for commercial installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shannong Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Typically, there are LOCAL codes for smoke ALARMS concerning placement (eg. outside every bedroom), distances (from stoves and other flames, from the wall, from each other), etc. These codes are unrelated to monitoring, supervision, Central Station, FACP, etc. These devices and codes are intended as life saving devices only for occupants in the dwelling. There are also usually LOCAL codes that dictate things like unsupervised devices and those that don't meet NAFP standards should not be monitored and signal the Central Station for response by the local FD. If yours are not being monitored and do not signal the local FD then it's probably a non-issue for the most point as long as you meet the LOCAL codes for smoke ALARMS. However, UL (in the case of AC powered smoke alarms) and NAFP make it illegal to use these devices for something that was not intended. This is a catch-all that creates gray areas in a legal sense. If your stand alone smoke alarm was not intended to be monitored by an FACP are you thus illegal and violating code? Dunno.... My limited information was gleamed from reading various posts on other sites, and I'm sure I've forgotten some details. Some of those opinions shared were probably not fully correct. Here's one of the more useful forum posts that I read that includes actual quotes from the code and links to recent updates to the NAFP code. http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/21106-interconnect-120vac-smokes-with-alarm-panel/ If you do a Google search using the Kiddie version of the relay SM120X and something like "alarm panel" you'll probably find a lot more posts. I'm sure somebody on this forum is a professional installer familiar with the specifics, although local codes vary. Probably a good topic to post on as others deal with this issue as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I happen to know our Village Mayor - so I'm going to get a 'referal' to our fire chief to get clarification I think. Thanks for your help @Shannong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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