Adjust Scene - with 3-Way switches

[Toddimus]

Programming question here.  I have searched and read about adjust scene programming, but found nothing regarding a 3 (or more) way switch setup to do what I want.  Here's a simplified set of my components involved in the scenario...

 

Devices:

Dimmer switch "Hallway - A" (controls actual load with red wire, is also set as a controller for the 3-way scene)

Dimmer switch "Hallway - B" (red load line is not connected, it is used only for the 3-way scene as a controller for the scene)

 

Scene:

"Hallway - 3 Way"

Both "Hallway - A" and "Hallway - B" are controllers for this scene.

 

I would like to set the locally applied (i.e. button pressed on the wall switch) value to a different (higher) value than is assigned to the scene itself.  I would also like to be able to programmatically change these levels (and ramp rates) independently, depending upon the time of day.  In order to do this, I will set up programs that will trigger an "adjust scene" action.

 

My question relates to the options available in the adjust scene drop-down boxes.  In the THEN clause of my program, I have the following options to adjust the scene:

 

In Scene: Hallway - 3 Way (Scene icon),  Set: Hallway - A (Device icon) : XXX% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - 3 Way (Scene icon),  Set: Hallway - A (Device icon) : X.X Sec (Ramp Rate)

In Scene: Hallway - 3 Way (Scene icon),  Set: Hallway - B (Device icon) : XXX% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - 3 Way (Scene icon),  Set: Hallway - B (Device icon) : X.X Sec (Ramp Rate)

 

But I also have the options of:

 

In Scene: Hallway - A (Device icon),  Set: Hallway - A (Device icon): XXX% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - A (Device icon),  Set: Hallway - A (Device icon): X.X Sec (Ramp Rate)

In Scene: Hallway - B (Device icon),  Set: Hallway - B (Device icon): XXX% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - B (Device icon),  Set: Hallway - B (Device icon): X.X Sec (Ramp Rate)

In Scene: Hallway - A (Device icon),  Set: Hallway - B (Device icon): XXX% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - A (Device icon),  Set: Hallway - B (Device icon): X.X Sec (Ramp Rate)

In Scene: Hallway - B (Device icon),  Set: Hallway - A (Device icon): XXX% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - B (Device icon),  Set: Hallway - A (Device icon): X.X Sec (Ramp Rate)

 

So I think I understand that if I want to change the scene "Hallway - 3 Way" parameters when the actual scene is triggered, I need to adjust the first set of four values (with "Hallway - 3 Way" selected in the first drop down box after "In Scene".  This will not have an effect on the values applied locally (i.e. when I press the actual light switches on the wall).

 

If I want to adjust the locally applied levels (and ramp rates), do I need to set all eight of the second set of values?  So for instance at night, I want the scene to trigger on levels of 30% and a ramp rate of 2.0 sec.  When the actual wall buttons are pressed, I want the level to go to 60% with a ramp rate of 0.5 sec.  I also want the other wall switch to adjust its locally displayed LED level to match.  Furthermore, if a locally applied "Fast On" is double clicked on one of the switches, I want the load to come on to 100%.  Effectively, this gives me three levels of "ON" at any given time.  The scene would be programmatically triggered by motion detectors for the 30% level.  If I press a wall switch, the lights come on to 60%.  And if I double click the wall switch, the lights come on to 100%.  All of this with theoretically different ramp rates for each scenario.

 

I presume I would need to do at least this:

 

In Scene: Hallway - 3 Way,  Set: Hallway - A : 30% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - 3 Way,  Set: Hallway - A : 2.0 Sec (Ramp Rate)

In Scene: Hallway - 3 Way,  Set: Hallway - B : 30% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - 3 Way,  Set: Hallway - B : 2.0 Sec (Ramp Rate)

 

 

In Scene: Hallway - A,  Set: Hallway - A : 60% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - A,  Set: Hallway - A : 0.5 Sec (Ramp Rate)

In Scene: Hallway - B,  Set: Hallway - B : 60% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - B,  Set: Hallway - B : 0.5 Sec (Ramp Rate)

 

Do I need to do these too?

 

In Scene: Hallway - A,  Set: Hallway - B : 60% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - A,  Set: Hallway - B : 0.5 Sec (Ramp Rate)

In Scene: Hallway - B,  Set: Hallway - A : 60% (On Level)

In Scene: Hallway - B,  Set: Hallway - A : 0.5 Sec (Ramp Rate)

 

This same question would apply to any "N-Way" switches and presumably gets more convoluted with more controller switches in the scene.

 

I hope this makes sense. 

 

Thanks in advance for any help with this question.

Cheers,
Todd

 

p.s.  As an aside... the fact that they call it a 3-Way switch is somewhat misleading to me.  There are only two switches and two possible paths for the hot lead (in a conventional switch setup).  There are 4 possible permutations of the switch positions:  UP-UP, UP-DOWN, DOWN-UP and DOWN-DOWN.  Is it because there are usually 3 wires involved?  White, red and black?  That's the only plausible explanation to me.  I do realize that Insteon switches aren't wired this way. 

[oberkc]

If I want to adjust the locally applied levels (and ramp rates), do I need to set all eight of the second set of values?

 

Yes.  You have two controllers.  Each controller has two responders (itself and the other switch).  Each responder has two parameters (ramp rate and level).  2x2x2=8.

[Toddimus]

Makes sense.  And I thought that might be the case.  It's just a lot of programming.  I have 24 (8 scenes x 3 lighting scenarios for each scene) programs so far to address the level changes. And I haven't finished installing all of my devices, or creating scenes.  Each of those programs would then need at least 4 adjust scene lines (for single device scenes) and 12 lines (for my dual controller scenes).  I know... just buck up and deal with it.    That's part of the fun in this home automation stuff.

 

Version 5.X will hopefully make this easier, in that I can use variables instead of hard coded values in the adjust scene drop down lists. 

Seems like there's an opportunity for a new feature (even without variables driving the levels)...

 

The new GUI feature would allow the user to apply the changes to all of the devices in a scene (and the scene itself) in the adjust scene part of the programming tab.  Kind of like the "Copy Scene Attributes from <Scene Name>" button on the scene configuration page.  I realize it wouldn't necessarily address my desire to have different ON or RAMP levels for the scene vs. locally applied button presses.  But I can envision how that could be implemented too.

 

Thanks for the reply oberkc!

[Toddimus]

Follow up question...

 

I assume these adjust scene actions actually write updates to the internal non-volatile (is it EEPROM?) of the devices.  Is there any issue with degradation if I write to these say... 5 times per day?  I commented about this in one of the Ideascale items where the originator (Jim Searle) wanted to be able to programmatically enable/disable devices from being responders to scenes. By the way, this is a great idea, if it can be done...  http://udi.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Allow-disabling-a-device-in-a-program/83037-32911

 

This would also theoretically require writes to the devices' non-volatile memory.

Any thoughts on the longevity of the non-volatile memory's write endurance?  10 years x 365 days x 5 writes per day is almost 20,000 write actions.

 

Thanks,
Todd

[LeeG]

The Insteon devices support 1,000,000 updates. No chance of causing a problem beyond the devices normal life cycle.

[stusviews]

That's about 587½ years, including leap years @ 5 changes/day.

[Toddimus]

Well, that answers that question.  You even did the math for me Stu, thanks.   So I won't worry about it then.

 

Any thoughts on the new feature for automatically populating the permutations of the adjust scene function I suggested for the interface?  I did go through and do it manually with all the permutations and it wasn't that bad but it would be nice to be able to automate some of that process if possible. 

[oberkc]

Any thoughts on the new feature for automatically populating the permutations of the adjust scene function I suggested for the interface?

 

I don't fully exploit insteon ability to define different responses to different controllers.  Most of my scenes are defined in such a way that, regardless of controller, the responses are the same.  For people like me, an option to apply response levels to all controllers in one or two steps might be useful.  However, I would not like it to impinge upon the ability to define different levels for each controller of a scene.  That is not a trade I would support. 

 

In the end, I don't care about a little bit of work up front.  I don't find it too much bother to create large programs because the interface to add program lines works well, in my mind. 

 

 

Version 5.X will hopefully make this easier

 

My perception, also, is that a lot of people have pinned a lot of hope on this version known as 5.X.  I am afraid it is going to suffer the problems associated with high expectations....it is very difficult to live up to lofty goals.