Possibly no Neutral?

[dansarrosick]

Hi all - I've done about a dozen new switch lincs in my house and for the first time I think I've hit an electrical box with no neutral. The layout is below.

 

2 cables coming into the box, attached to 3 switches, all on the same circuit.

 

Cable 1, white wire - connects to a black wire that connects to switch 1

Cable 1, black wire - connects to the same switch 1

 

Cable 2, white wire - connects to switch 2

Cable 2, black wire - connects to switch 3

 

That's it for what comes into the box. The black wire that is connected to Cable 1 white wire, seems to be daisy chained (wrong word Im sure) to all three switches. Picture attached if it helps.

 

So is there no way to use a switch that needs a neutral here? How come there are neutrals everywhere else but not here? Assuming there are no neutrals what is the impact of using the 2 wire switches? Any major drawbacks?

 

Thanks in advance..

 

[Guitartexan01]

I have a home built in 2012 and I have one stinking light switch like this- no neutral. I solved my problem by drilling two studs over to a receptacle and extending that neutral to the switch. They make wood drill bits that are 2' to 6' long and are for this purpose. Be very careful that there are no water pipes or other wires in the space you will drill through. Just looking at the wires in your box here I see no alternative. Sometimes one can rewire a circuit, but that does not appear to be possible given what you have to work with.

 

 

GT

[hart2hart]

It appears to be wiring pattern where hot and neutral have been pulled to the actual light locations. The hot is then routed to relay locations so it can be switched on/off. ( typical when you see white and black wires joined together)

 

To be clear how many lights are being controlled with those 3 relays in the box? Are any of them part of three way circuits?

 

To get a better picture do you have multimeter so you can locate wires that have voltage between them for example between the white and black wires in each cable. If so test with switch in off and on position.

 

A drawing showing which specific wires are connected as they enter box would be clearer than picture.

 

My guess is you're correct -- no neutral but I'd suggest electrician unless you're very sure of your self. A mistake here opens you to insurance company scrutiny if an issue ever occurs.

 

Lastly the two wire switch are only good for higher wattage incandescent bulbs if memory serves me.

[MWareman]

Looks like a retrofit box to me - this may have been added later. I triee following the wires in your pic to generate a wiring diagram, but cannot see enough to complete a map. Do these three switches control different things? Any part of multi way circuits? Its not uncommon to see a live come in (usually black), chain to multiple switches and then go out again and on to other devices. The three switches and only two wires is most confusing though. I hope you figure it out!

[hart2hart]

Thought about it a little more. If no neutral, I'd considered adding the micro-dimmer modules in the light fixture boxes. You could then possibly get one hot and neutral via existing cable that could be used for each relay. Instead of controlling the lights via a load wire the relay/dimmers would be in a scenes with each micro-dimmer module at light locations. Still depends on any three-way complications not clear from picture and finding the location from electrical panel to a hot and neutral cable pair.

 

Might be little more expensive.

[stusviews]

The main disadvantage is that the 2-wire switch is restricted to incandescent loads.

 

The cable on the left has line (white wire with black mark connected to a black wire) that is daisy-chained to all three switches. The other wires on each switch (left-black, middle-white, right-black) are load wires.

 

To use one or more Insteon devices (other than the 2-wire switch):

 

At the fixture that is controlled by the leftmost switch:

Reconnect the black and white wire going to the switch so that black is line and white is neutral. Install a Micro Module in the ceiling box.

Replace any or all switches with Insteon devices. You now have line and neutral for all three switches. The middle and right switches also have load wires, the leftmost switch does not. Link that switch as a controller of the Micro Module.

[dansarrosick]

Thanks for the feedback all. So each switch powers two external lights, no three ways. Unfortunately the fixtures that are controlled by the left switch are two different external spotlights two stories up so adding a micro module in (one or both) would be en effort and start to get expensive. I also have no other switches/fixtures on the wall so cant bring a neutral over from anywhere else. 

 

If I used the 2 wire switch with an LED would it not work at all or would it just not be able to dim? I really only need on and off in this situation...

 

Thanks.

[stusviews]

The 2-wire switch is designed to work with incandescent bulbs only!!

 

The 2-wire switch may not work at all or the life of the switch and/or the LED bulb may be shortened, in some cases to a few days or hours, or the switch and/or the LED bulb may be destroyed. OTOH, it may work. Do you feel lucky?

[dansarrosick]

I hear you.. Is there a minimum wattage that it needs? The switch in question controls two fixtures with 3 bulbs each. So if, say one of the six bulbs are incandescent would that be ok?

[stusviews]

You can blame the person who installed the wiring for the rightmost two switches. It is incorrect to run only the two load wires. The correct procedure is for one or both cables to be 3-wire, most especially the cable for the two rightmost switches.

 

You can expect some difficulty to overcome the original error (i.e., the wiring for the two rightmost switches is not in compliance with the code).

 

Edit: You may be able to solve the problem from the other end, that is, at the fixtures controlled by the rightmost switches. If you can, then that will require two Micro Modules. that will depend on how a neutral was provided for those two fixtures.

[hart2hart]

I hear you.. Is there a minimum wattage that it needs? The switch in question controls two fixtures with 3 bulbs each. So if, say one of the six bulbs are incandescent would that be ok?

The reason for minimum wattage is so a small voltage can be passed through filament without bulb being visibly on which is okay for incandescent but not for led.

[stusviews]

One incandescent bulb is adequate, but you still run a risk if the remaining LED bulbs are not specifically meant to be dimmed. The reason is that Insteon dimmers use TRIACs that accomplish dimming by clipping the waveform, more clipping equals dimmer lighting.

 

But, even at 100% (full on), TRIACs clip the waveform. Non-dimmable lights such as CFLs and LEDs can place an undue strain on the dimmer or its own electronics if the shape of the waveform (i.e., sine wave) is distorted.

[dansarrosick]

Thanks all. Will try a 2 wire dimmer with a mixture of incandescents and dimmable LEDs and see how that goes..