Help on micro module 2442 and 3 way switches

[ENaiman]

Is anyone here by any chance having some experience in using the Insteon micro module to control a 3 way switched light?

 

I have now several days of trying different setups and nothing works as intended.

 

What happens?

- the micro module turns on/off the lights every time when its micro switches are pressed or when it is controlled from ISY

- when the light switches are pressed (any of them) the lights are turning on/off erratically (sometimes it works but mostly not)

 

What I have done?

- I have my module installed behind one light switch (not behind the middle one) and configured as "latching"

- I toggled on/off the "3 way toggle mode" (which is active by default) several times and tested to see if it made any difference ... it didn't

- monitored the sense wire used - whenever any light switch is used, the power is applied OR removed to/from the sense wire

- used 3 different modules - same behaviour

 

 

I simple don't know why it is not working. Any help is appreciated.

[stusviews]

Describe the wires in each switch box, for example, colors, how they are bundled (e.g., 1 black and white cable, 2 black, red and white cables, etc.). Also, how they're connected (e.g, one black screw with a white wire and brass screws with black and red wires).

[brianp6621]

When I did my 3way circuit, I just installed 2 Switchlincs. One has no load connected (so it is just a controller) and the other is the actual controller connected to the loads. In order to do this I had to use the old runner to get a neutral to the distant switch. Then you just make both switched part of a scene with both as responders and controllers.

 

Edit. Oh I just realized that you seem to be trying to do this without replacing the switches?

[brianp6621]

Is anyone here by any chance having some experience in using the Insteon micro module to control a 3 way switched light?

 

I have now several days of trying different setups and nothing works as intended.

 

What happens?

- the micro module turns on/off the lights every time when its micro switches are pressed or when it is controlled from ISY

- when the light switches are pressed (any of them) the lights are turning on/off erratically (sometimes it works but mostly not)

 

What I have done?

- I have my module installed behind one light switch (not behind the middle one) and configured as "latching"

- I toggled on/off the "3 way toggle mode" (which is active by default) several times and tested to see if it made any difference ... it didn't

- monitored the sense wire used - whenever any light switch is used, the power is applied OR removed to/from the sense wire

- used 3 different modules - same behaviour

 

 

I simple don't know why it is not working. Any help is appreciated.

My initial thoughts are, the micromodule essentially needs to be installed between the load and the last switch.

 

So you need to make sure the load wire of the module goes directly to the light, the line wire is connected to a true line/constant on, the neutral is connected, and the sense wire is connected to the "output" of the switch in the 3way circuit.

 

The way you say you didn't install it in the middle switch makes me think maybe you installed it at the beginning of the circuit.

 

I believe you should be using sense wire 1 (connected to the load "output" of the existing 3way switches) with 3-way toggle mode on.

[MWareman]

Sorry - wrong thread!

[ENaiman]

Thank you guys for all your help; I will try to answer your questions to my best.

 

@stusviews

I live in Australia so we have different wire colours here; I'm afraid that won't help at all.

 

@brianp6621

If I get the module between the load and the last switch then if the module is in the "off" position, I won't be able to turn on the lights using the light switches so that won't work.

 

It seems the solution is indeed to have 2 modules - I don't have yet clear the connection diagram unfortunately.

[stusviews]

enaiman,

 

It doesn't matter where you live, there is only one schematic for connecting multi-way switches. Also, there is no code color colour requirement for multi-way switches. So, describing wiring IS meaningful.

 

Australia uses brown and red for the phases, blue or black for neutral and green/yellow for earth

 

BTW, I don't have any hashtags.

[MFBra]

 

Sorry it's mixed English and Portuguese but I'm out and cannot edit, I had a friend facing difficulties with it and created this to help him.

 

Hope it may help. (It follows Brazilian code, and when you see "fase or rede" means load. Neutro is self explaining).

 

 

 

MF_Bra

[ENaiman]

@MFBra

 

Thank you very much - that's an excellent starting point.

 

I realised it is exactly my setup - the micro module works and it turns lights on/off but for me, those light switches aren't working at all.

[stusviews]

That cannot be the wiring in your case if you installed the Micro Module in the switch box. That is the correct wiring when the Micro Module is installed in the fixture box. But, although there is only one schematic, how the wires are run varies.

[MFBra]

Reproducing my friend's difficulties I'd say that Stusviews suggestion to review wiring was the most important, the travelers were messed up.

 

We measured the wire that comes from the last switch just to check if there is power in distinct position of all switches in the chain (just to double check that installation).

 

If you can detect on/off in that wire and assuming your micro module sense 1 wire is not broken, I'd suggest double check if you have configured latching, because I understood that micro module can control the load without any sense connected, so it seems to be good.

 

I know it may be repetitive based on what you have done, but 3 modules with problem is just improbable.

 

 

MF_Bra

[ENaiman]

That is exactly how I done mine (if you remove that "switch" connected to Sense 1 - where is that coming from anyway?) and I did checked to see if there was a change on Sense 1 when any switch was flipped. There was definitely a change but still the mico module didn't react.

[MFBra]

Maybe the more experienced here may help, but considering the issues are always in the details, so just to review :

 

- if you had the latching circuit working without the module and

- really sure you got the "last" switch wire that run up to the light (connected to micro's load port)

- have neutral and line to micro module (careful to not use here any travelers or the load cable from the switches)

- have the correct configuration for latching

 

I'd suggest to create a "lab" install in a bench prior to return the modules...

 

 

 

 

 

 

MF_Bra

[stusviews]

I'd suggest describing the wiring in each switch box.

[ENaiman]

@MFBra

 

All that checks out except I'm not sure it is the "last" switch - might as well be the first. I'll speak to my electrician.

 

Thanks,

[stusviews]

That could have been me. That's what I do

[ENaiman]

Cool, now let's see about your down-under travel arrangements

[stusviews]

I enough aware of wiring to provide an international internet interpretation of virtually any line voltage wired device as long as it exceeds 100VAC, has 277VAC as a maximum, both with respect to ground and is restricted to either 50Hz or 60Hz, formerly cps.

 

But, if you want to create travel arrangements, I can find a place to stay

 

Edit: Describe colors, etc. at each switch box.

[ENaiman]

It's just too complicated to open all the boxes and to try to figure out what goes where.

Thanks for your help

[brianp6621]

Thank you guys for all your help; I will try to answer your questions to my best.

@brianp6621

If I get the module between the load and the last switch then if the module is in the "off" position, I won't be able to turn on the lights using the light switches so that won't work.

 

It seems the solution is indeed to have 2 modules - I don't have yet clear the connection diagram unfortunately.

Not true at all. That is exactly were the module needs to be. LAST in line. The sense line is what allows the hard switches to control the micromodule. Essentially the 3 way circuit operates like it normally would but instead of the final LOAD wire going to the light, it tells the module if the switches are ON or OFF. Also regardless of what the switches are doing, if you send an Insteon command to turn the module on, it doesn't matter what the switches are set to at that time. You do not need 2 modules.

 

What I have described is what the diagram posted above shows. The module in between the switches and the load.

[stusviews]

There are multiple ways of running cables/wires. The diagram show only one way, with the source at one end and the load at the other. It's also possible that both the source and the load are at the fixture, or, in some cases, at the switch box.

[brianp6621]

There are multiple ways of running cables/wires. The diagram show only one way, with the source at one end and the load at the other. It's also possible that both the source and the load are at the fixture, or, in some cases, at the switch box.

My point is, the micromodule has to be what is connected to the load otherwise you can never have both the modules and the switches control the load independently. It doesn't matter WHERE the devices are, but the load/output of the module HAS to go to the light directly.

[stusviews]

I agree, the schematic is correct. But how everything is cabled varies. The OP indicated an exact match without opening any other switch box, yet it's not functioning correctly. Where's the source, at the first switch, then last, the fixture?

 

It seems that we put in more effort at a solution than has the OP.

 

 

It's just too complicated to open all the boxes and to try to figure out what goes where.

[ENaiman]

@stusviews

 

That was completely uncalled for.

I am not an electrician and expecting me to open all these boxes and trying to figure what is in there is not a 5 minutes task. Besides if I told you something like "There are 7 wires in there, 4 reds and 3 brown; one red going to a terminal, 3 reds going to another and 3 browns to another" that would have given you the perfect picture, right ... I can bet all my money that your next question would have been to describe the switch then a lot of other related questions. It was simply not worth it.

I have asked for help from somebody who "had experience" in this, somebody who did it before.

 

All I needed was a wiring diagram (which should work everytime in a 3 way circuit) and brianp6621 was very kind to post one. My reply thanking you for your help should have been an indication that I do not wish to follow your idea.

 

@brianp6621

Thank you, you are absolutely right and I didn't see that. I am sure I can sort this out now.

[stusviews]

Yes, describing the how many of each color is often all I need. I have nearly two decades of hands on wiring experience. There's a few ways 4-way switches can be properly wired. When something doesn't work as expected, I won't guess. Here's just two ways: