Three-way switch help

[mschaefe]

Hi,

 

     I replaced two three-way switches with two 2477d switches.  I have a keypadlinc hooked to them as well.  The configuration is as follows:

 

Scene: Stair Light

Controllers: Keypad B, Top Switch, Bottom Switch

Responders: Keypad B, Top Switch, Bottom Switch

 

The three-way part works just fine. What is not working is trying to use the scene as a night light, so at dawn, I want to set the on level to 100%, and at dusk, I want to set the on level to 10%, and I wanted it to turn on at dusk and off at dawn.

 

The program is as follows:

At sunset + 30

In Scene 'Stair Light' Set Top Switch 10% 'On Level'

In Scene 'Stair Light' Set Bottom Switch 10% 'On Level'

Insteon Set 'Stair Light' On

 

When I run it manually, it sometimes works, but it never takes on the first try (I used to have it turn off/on at sunrise/sunset)

 

What I don't understand is why there are tons of scene variables, and setting them directly from the ISY interface works, but setting them programmatically doesn't. (also, why is there an 'apply changes to all devices' option in the config page for the scene)

[stusviews]

Post the actual program (right click, copy to clipboard).

[oberkc]

It will also be good to know to which of your switches are the lights connected.

 

The program statement, I recall, takes the general form:

 

In scene [controller device] set [responder device] to XX%

 

Given that you have three controller switches, I expected three such lines in your program. If the lights are connected to more than one switch, I would expect even more such program lines.

 

I am only speculating, but assume that the "write changes to all...." statement enables updates to all affected devices. There are more than, one, I have always believed.

[mschaefe]

Here are the details... First, the night mode program (light is attached to Top Stairs Switch)... The forum won't let me paste the images, so will have to write text

If

     Time is Sunset + 30 minutes

Then

     In Scene 'Stairs Light' Set 'Top Stairs Switch' 10% (On Level)

     In Scene 'Stairs Light' Set 'Bottom Stairs Switch' 10% (On Level)

Else

    <empty>

---- Device config for Top Stairs Switch ----  

Top Stairs Switch [Applied Locally]  10% On Level 

*** This should be 100% ***

 

---- The scene config for Stairs Light ----
Top Stairs Switch 100% On Level

*** Correct ***

 

Now, the question seems to be why ISY isn't applying the scene configuration onto the switches in the scene.
 
So, the question is: Why isn't the scene overriding the "local changes" and if the "local changes" override the scene, why can't the ISY set those?

 

***Additional edit, if I click "Copy Scene Attributes From 'Stairs Light'", it still says Top Stairs Switch is "Applied Locally", and I think that is why the scene changes are not getting set correctly.

[LeeG]

The Adjust Scene statements are wrong.   They are setting ISY Scene information the affect of which would require a Program to use the ISY Scene.

 

The first parameter must specify the Controller.  That would be the Top switch for one In Scene statement and the Bottom switch for the other In Scene statement.

 

To copy a Program right click on Program name, select Copy to Clipboard, last entry in list.  Then Paste into forum.  

[mschaefe]

Okay, that worked, but it makes no sense. I would assume that the "scene" is the configuration of the switches when the scene trigger happens, but the configuration is tied to the switches and not the scene.

 

Stairs Light Night Mode - [iD 000F][Parent 0001]

 

If

        Time is Sunset  + 30 minutes

 

Then

        In Scene 'Stairs Light' Set 'Top Stairs Switch' 10% (On Level)

        In Scene 'Stairs Light' Set 'Bottom Stairs Switch' 10% (On Level)

        In Scene 'Top Stairs Switch' Set 'Top Stairs Switch' 10% (On Level)

        In Scene 'Bottom Stairs Switch' Set 'Bottom Stairs Switch' 10% (On Level)

        In Scene 'Keypad B(Basement)' Set 'Top Stairs Switch' 10% (On Level)

        Wait  5 seconds

        Set Scene 'Stairs Light' On

 

Else

   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

In other words, let's say I have two scenes, home and night, three switches/lights, A, B, and C, and two buttons, H and N.  When I click H, I want A, B and C at 100%, and when I click N, I want A, B and C at 10%.

 

I would assume to program two scenes, and the two scenes contain the three switches and one of the buttons, with a scene brightness depending on home or night.  But here, it seems that the "scene" is just the configuration of the controller and not the responder.  In other words, "home" = what happens when I press the H button, and scene "night" is what happens when I press the N button.

 

So, what I'm doing here (which now makes sense) is changing the configuration of all the buttons that control that scene to set all the other switches to the 10% or 100% level.

 

Putting it in terms of the H and N button, I want to reprogram the H button based on time of day to send different commands to the responding switches.

 

Is that the correct thought?

 

If so, then I need every combination of switches, not just top/top bottom/bottom, etc.

[mschaefe]

That works.  Question... what is the point of "In Scene 'Stairs Light' Set 'Top Stairs Switch' 10% (On Level)"  Seems like it does nothing but confuse the user because it has no physical effect.

 

And... I used to have a program line to set the scene on, but deleted that because it wasn't doing what I thought.

 

Thanks for the help, not exactly clear yet, but less muddy!

[stusviews]

 

Okay, that worked, but it makes no sense. I would assume that the "scene" is the configuration of the switches when the scene trigger happens, but the configuration is tied to the switches and not the scene.

 

It's not unusual for each device in a scene to be set to set to different levels. So if you set the "scene" to 20%, for example, does that mean that each device is set to 20% or that each device is set to 20% of its current setting?

 

To avoid that confusion, each device in the scene needs to be adjusted separately. Also, the Insteon protocol has no method for adjusting the brightness level of a scene, only devices.

[mschaefe]

True, but the program line I had used was in Scene X, set device Y to state Z.  I would expect that when I subsequently trigger scene X, device Y should go to state Z, but it doesn't.  It seems the line has no effect.

 

What does seem to have an effect is manually creating a scene by saying, upon trigger of each controller, set the state of each switch to state Z.

 

I'm not going to say that this is a "common" thing because I would expect in a normal installation there would be two separate controllers (e.g. button Home and button Night) that trigger two different scenes with preprogrammed dim levels for each switch, but it is pretty confusing to have to reprogram all of the device interactions just to change the dim level for day vs. night.

[oberkc]

The ability to set responder levels different based on the specific controller is considered a "feature" of insteon.  For example, switches A and B can both be controllers of switch C.  When switch A is pressed, C can be programmed to come on at 50%, but when switch B is pressed, C can be programmed to come on at 100%.  It is the very foundation of scenes.

 

The point of confusion, in my mind, is that when one introduces a controller/PLM, what may not be obvious is that the PLM is actually a controller of each device and each scene, in addition to any other device defined as a controller within a scene.  When you set the responder levels at the scene level, you are, in effect, telling the responder to turn to those levels when controlled by the PLM.  This has no effect on the same responder when it responds to a controller other that the PLM.

 

Insteon would be much less flexible without this construct.

[stusviews]

Having a Home button and a Night button is easily and correctly accomplished using two scenes. Having a single button that exercises that control based on time of day requires the use of a program in which each device is adjusted.

 

But, you can't just use a program to change the level of each device at, say, Sunset + 30 min. If you did, then the first time the program ran, the devices would be set to the new level and remain at that level. So, you need to use the Else clause to return the devices to the previous level. You also need an If statement that triggers the Else. That can be accomplished by using From ..., To ... . The levels change at the From time and revert at the To time.

[LeeG]

mschaefe

 

Sorry I did not respond sooner, I was away from the house.

 

The various folks have covered your questions (I hope).  The one thing I would mention is that an ISY Scene with all its various Controllers and Responders is actually made up of usually many independent Insteon Scenes.

 

The ISY Scene XXXX has the PLM as Controller with the various Controller devices and Responder devices as part of One Insteon Scene.   An Insteon Scene has many capabilities, some of which can be dynamically changed with Adjust Scene.  This Insteon Scene is independent of the other Insteon Scenes that go to make up the ISY Scene.

 

Each Controller device in this ISY Scene has a separate Insteon Scene associated with it.  An ISY Scene with 3 Controller devices has 4 independent Insteon Scenes, one Insteon Scene for each Controller device and one Insteon Scene that has the PLM as Controller.  

 

Sounds complex but when each Insteon Scene is looked at separately it is more simple than it appears.   Please post back if you have more questions.

[mschaefe]

But, you can't just use a program to change the level of each device at, say, Sunset + 30 min. If you did, then the first time the program ran, the devices would be set to the new level and remain at that level. 

 

Correct. I have a program that runs at sunrise - 30 min that turns the light off and sets the on level to 100%.

 

I think I have a better idea of the scenes now, perhaps this would be appropriate for a FAQ or Wiki?