Scottmichaelj Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 Not sure whats going on but the led lights in my home have started to flicker. All of them, not just certain brands in certain areas. Which makes me wonder if its possible as one/some of the LED bulbs get older in age do they dirty the line with more noise? I have walked around most of my home unplugging all/any wall warts which has made zero difference. Nothing new has been added. Yes honestly nothing new. Im not gonna be like those people that say nothing has been added then be like "oh I forgot I did..." Ok ok I lie, some of the older style philips leds with the "flat heads" became defective. So much for lasting 25 years. I replaced a few lamps with the philips slim style. I had a few slim styles in other areas without issues so I put some in my home office and master bedroom. Even if the lights are "off" could that still cause my issue? Ill remove them tomorrow and see. Anyone else use the philips slim style bulbs and insteon with or without issues? We really should start a new thread with a list from the box stores of which brands work and which have caused people problems. My PLM just died too this week. So far this week hasnt started off so well!
Brian H Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) It could be possible the LED bulbs electronics can start to deteriorate over time. Depending on its design. Heat is the enemy of electronics. If you don't get the heat out and the electronics get hot. Their life is reduced. Electrolytic capacitors are the most likely to go. The 25 years is based on a 3 hour a day On time. Some LED bulbs to keep their internal electronic noise from getting to the power lines. Put a simple AC rated capacitor across the AC input. Cheap fix for the noise but also sucks up power line signals like Insteon and X10. If they are off. They should not cause any issues. I have some of the Phillips Slim Line LED bulbs I don't remember any issues. In my evaluation tests but will revisit them. I actually have some Lighting Science Group LED bulbs that I can't imagine pass the FCC emissions tests. Turn them On and they can knock out every FM radio in the house receiving anything. List of working LED bulbs maybe a good ides. Just make sure if possible. The exact part number is listed. I have some of the old style Phillips EnduraLED bulbs. 12E26A60 and 12E26A60-1. Both called the same thing but act differently when used with a dimmer. Edited January 20, 2016 by Brian H
Scottmichaelj Posted January 20, 2016 Author Posted January 20, 2016 It could be possible the LED bulbs electronics can start to deteriorate over time. Depending on its design. Heat is the enemy of electronics. If you don't get the heat out and the electronics get hot. Their life is reduced. Electrolytic capacitors are the most likely to go. The 25 years is based on a 3 hour a day On time. Some LED bulbs to keep their internal electronic noise from getting to the power lines. Put a simple AC rated capacitor across the AC input. Cheap fix for the noise but also sucks up power line signals like Insteon and X10. If they are off. They should not cause any issues. I have some of the Phillips Slim Line LED bulbs I don't remember any issues. In my evaluation tests but will revisit them. I actually have some Lighting Science Group LED bulbs that I can't imagine pass the FCC emissions tests. Turn them On and they can knock out every FM radio in the house receiving anything. List of working LED bulbs maybe a good ides. Just make sure if possible. The exact part number is listed. I have some of the old style Phillips EnduraLED bulbs. 12E26A60 and 12E26A60-1. Both called the same thing but act differently when used with a dimmer. Its just not making sense. All the lights are off and I still get flickering when turning on just one area. I wonder if a filterlinc went bad that I dont know about and now I am pushing noise into the line causing the problem. Thats the only thing I can think of at this point. Out of curiosity what do you use for two pin MR16? All of my 6" recessed cans are Ecosmart by Cree but are the older version. But my lamps are flickering too with A19 Philips slimlines.
Brian H Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 The flickering LED bulbs. Are they all on Insteon Modules or some on mechanical switches also flicker? Your power company didn't install a new Smart Meter on your home recently? I only have A19 or A21 LED bulbs in use. No MR16 ones.
Techman Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 I initially tried using the Philips flat led bulbs and found that they were not that compatible with Insteon devices. They flickered at lower dim levels. I'm now using Cree led bulbs without any issues.
stusviews Posted January 20, 2016 Posted January 20, 2016 I agree. Go with Cree. I'm using some Philips A19 110W equivalent that blink occasionally at lower dim levels. Fortunately, they're in a frosted glass kitchen ceiling fixture, so I replaced one of the four LED bulbs with a blue coated halogen bulb. You can still tell the difference at lower levels, but people rarely stare at the ceiling light and at full brightness the difference is imperceptible.
Scottmichaelj Posted January 20, 2016 Author Posted January 20, 2016 I agree. Go with Cree. I'm using some Philips A19 110W equivalent that blink occasionally at lower dim levels. Fortunately, they're in a frosted glass kitchen ceiling fixture, so I replaced one of the four LED bulbs with a blue coated halogen bulb. You can still tell the difference at lower levels, but people rarely stare at the ceiling light and at full brightness the difference is imperceptible. Yeah Ill pickup a few of these Cree bulbs this weekend and test: Cree 100W Equivalent Daylight (5000K) A21 Dimmable LED Light Bulbs http://homedepot.com/p/Cree-100W-Equivalent-Daylight-5000K-A21-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-BA21-16050OMF-12DE26-1U100/205054836 Still doesnt resolve my flickering though. Oh BTW I had bought 6 of the Philips slimlines and had to remove three due to loud humming at full bright on my switchlinc 2477Ds and just for that reason they are going back.
Scottmichaelj Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 How can you test a bulb for noise? Is this a hard process? I have some candelabra bulbs I would like to check out. Maybe I could send it to someone here to look at when they had time?
stusviews Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 If you have specific communication issues, then removing a noisy device will alleviate the problem. Otherwise, you'd need some sophisticated testing instruments such as an oscilloscope.
Scottmichaelj Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 If you have specific communication issues, then removing a noisy device will alleviate the problem. Otherwise, you'd need some sophisticated testing instruments such as an oscilloscope. Will furnaces, AC, ovens etc cause issues? I am wondering if maybe the switchlincs are getting more sensitive over time and noticing the on/off from these other devices from the power draw itself. Maybe the LEDs are not the problem but it steams deeper into the panel? Im sitting here in the dark with only the kitchen recessed cans on and still seeing the flickering. Im starting to get OCD with stopping it. I turn off the kitchen LEDs recessed cans and go turn on the living rooms recessed cans and they flicker too. Argh!
stusviews Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Each of the device you mention should be powered by its own circuit breaker. Turn off a specific breaker to eliminate that device as a source of communication problems. Each test should only take a few minutes. Warm it up before turning off the furnace
Scottmichaelj Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 Each of the device you mention should be powered by its own circuit breaker. Turn off a specific breaker to eliminate that device as a source of communication problems. Each test should only take a few minutes. Warm it up before turning off the furnace Thanks yeah thats the plan. I did narrow down that flickering only happens when the switchlinc or KPL is dimming the load but happens in all areas with all the other lights turned off leading me to believe either the Cree 6" LEDs are now an issue or another device directly connected to the panel. It is not switch or area specific. The constant from room to room is the Insteon and Cree LEDs. While I am at HD this weekend I may buy some new recessed can LEDs too. Any recommendations? The Cree TW were mentioned in the SH forum as working well. I need "daylight".
Teken Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 I would highly suggest you read the reviews for the Cree lights you referenced above. As there are many recent (2015) reviews indicating these bulbs have a short service life. On a related note I had three different sites that all had communication issues which took forever to narrow down and identify. One site had problems about 30 days after the commissioning of the Insteon network. Two other sites had issues about 90 plus days later and in each case it was found to be the HD Cree bulbs. Our POCO had a huge LED rebate (at the till discount) going on in the fall which all of the major vendors participated from Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart etc. All three sites purchased the same HD Cree bulbs in various wattages. The problem I saw was none of them made any hum, buzzing, flicker, pulsing at all. Meaning there was no way to determine if the bulb was the issue simply by looking / listening. I literally had to unscrew 80 plus bulbs to find out which one was causing the issues . . . Scaling a 25 foot ladder up & down dozens of times like a used toilet seat wasn't the best memories I'll ever have. All I can tell you is the race to the bottom in terms of pricing vs quality is close. All I know is the LSG, Sylvania, and Luminus LED bulbs I installed have been running perfectly fine for 5-7 years straight with out any issues.
Scottmichaelj Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 All I know is the LSG, Sylvania, and Luminus LED bulbs I installed have been running perfectly fine for 5-7 years straight with out any issues. I am sure the bulbs you have are no longer available bc of the age, however do you have any specific skews or links to LEDs you installed recently with Insteon? I dont care about price, I care that they work.
stusviews Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) I have relatively new Sylvania and Cree 75 w equivalent, A19 form factor and Sylvania 100 w equivalent, A21 form factor that don't flicker at low levels when dimmed using SwitchLinc 2477D controllers. The Sylvania LEDs are more costly, but like you, it's more important to me that they work. Edited January 21, 2016 by stusviews
Scottmichaelj Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 I have relatively new Sylvania and Cree 75 w equivalent, A19 form factor and Sylvania 100 w equivalent, A21 form factor that don't flicker at low levels when dimmed using SwitchLinc 2477D controllers. Can you share the model/skews/or links please? I want to go with something that is tested, tried and true. I dont want to waste a ton of time on testing different brands if I dont have to. I trust your and Tekens opinions and recommendations.
Scottmichaelj Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 Has anyone else noticed there are no 100w LED bulbs in daylight? Just looked at the Sylvania and Cree at Lowes/HD and cant find any.
Teken Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 I am sure the bulbs you have are no longer available bc of the age, however do you have any specific skews or links to LEDs you installed recently with Insteon? I dont care about price, I care that they work. All three are still being made and being sold in retail locations where as others were purchased on line. The primary LSG are A19 definity DFN 19 WW 120 85 CRI, 8 Watt, 425 Lumens, 3000K. I have similar ones which are 60/75 watt equivalent. The primary Sylvania are G25 Ultra LED 85 CRI, 7 Watt, 450 Lumens, 2700K. I have similar ones which are 75/100 watt equivalent. The primary Luminus are PAR20 LED Elite 90 CRI, 7 Watt, 500 Lumens, 3000K. Again, I have 60/100 watt equivalent bulbs in use too.
stusviews Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Has anyone else noticed there are no 100w LED bulbs in daylight? Just looked at the Sylvania and Cree at Lowes/HD and cant find any. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-100W-Equivalent-Daylight-5000K-A21-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-5-Pack-BA21-16050OMF-12DE26-1U100/205083141
Teken Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-100W-Equivalent-Daylight-5000K-A21-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-5-Pack-BA21-16050OMF-12DE26-1U100/205083141 That is the same bulb in the multi-pack which has the same poor customer reviews. I don't know if this is a bad trend with respect to Cree LED products or simply poor QA and component selections. The three sites that had communication issues all used Cree LED bulbs from HD. All of them were current stock with a manufacture date code of 2015. Speaking for myself only these aren't the bulbs I would be investing hard earned money for a Insteon enabled network. My SOP for a very long time has been to place any new electronic device on a ramped style burn in process. With LED bulbs its easy just to leave them running for 72 hours to see what happens. If nothing obvious happens and the Insteon network is still reliable I take a gamble and run all of the bulbs on a dedicated circuit. I do this before the seven day return policy kicks in for various retail stores. Even though 168 hours seems very short when compared to the manufactures unicorn 25,000 hours. My personal experience is most cheap products fail with in this period or show signs of defect. After seven days it really comes down to the most common mile marker and that is 30-90 days which seems to be what I saw at the other three sites. As a data point the average run time for all three sites was 6-8 hours. This in my mind is *A Typical* for a regular household but is outside of the 3 hour testing reference Cree and other companies use. One thing I've found to be really shocking in the lighting industry is that price doesn't always reflect build quality or solid design implementation. At $20.XX plus for a bulb one would have guessed you were getting a first rate product. I can state with 100% certainty that (IF) the POCO had not subsidized these sort of bulbs at 50-75% discount. None of the three sites would have even considered them for their install. 80 x $20.97 = $1677.60 USD, keeping in mind these same bulbs were $28.XX CDN plus here in our local market place. So that is $2240.XX before any tax's for light bulbs. Not sure anyone can say the three sites were going cheap when they bought these Cree bulbs . . .
Scottmichaelj Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 So based on Tekens response about bad Cree bulbs was kind of where I was going when I said I couldnt find any other (Sylvania) leds at 100w. I was tired last night so I might have missed them online. Sometimes the apps dont search like the websites either. Thankfully we have a 90 day return policy at most of the stores here. So I may grab some new 6" can leds and a few A19s then test.
Teken Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Seems to me its a hit or miss with some brands or models of LED bulbs. If we simply ignore the HA aspect for a moment lots of family and friends have indicated many of the LED bulbs have not lasted the stated run time. Keeping in mind some of these failures I suspect are due to not following basic installation guidelines. Some indicate indoor use only and people are clearly using them outdoors. While others indicate they can not be installed into any enclosed case yet people do so. Then, you have people who place none dimmable LED bulbs on a dimmer thinking (ALL) of these LED bulbs dim?!?! Just these three basics have probably killed more LED bulbs I gather than poor quality & design. Now having said this the three sites I mentioned above all used the proper bulbs for the areas of use. Yet they did not fail in a normal way one would expect and that is no obvious noise, visual flicker etc. But saturated the power line with noise which essentially killed half the house in two installs. Just some points to consider here and keep in mind millions of people have had great success with the Cree brand. Use your own experience to guide you and perhaps things just might work out. Or not . . . Ha! Edited January 21, 2016 by Teken
Scottmichaelj Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 Use your own experience to guide you and perhaps things just might work out. Or not . . . Ha! I dont any any money and less brainz so...I rather be a lemming and just buy what works. My time has been decreasing over the years as I get older. People say the older you get the faster time goes, which I am starting to notice. Maybe I have piss poor organization of my time? Who knows?! This morning one of the 6" cans in my master bath water closet was flashing a ton so I swapped it with a new Cree Ecosmart I bought as extras for backup but the new led flashed as well so...off to HD to grab some bulbs to tryout.
Scottmichaelj Posted January 21, 2016 Author Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) So I bought two types of leds today and both dont work. I put the new bulbs in the flickering recessed can and a lamp at the same dim level and all flicker. For fun I put two of the older flat head Philips leds (older type that look like the Hue bulbs) in both a 40w equiv (470Lumens) and 60w equiv (830Lumens) into the recessed can that was flickering and neither flickered with these bulbs in the lamp or can. This is not scientific but I wonder if the higher equivalent leds notice more flicker than the lower equiv leds. I dont know but this A21 100w equiv flickers bad at all the ranges but high (still some flicker). Maybe thats why some people who have leds dont notice this because maybe they use 40w soft white? Just a thought. Heres what I bought: Cree 100W Equivalent Daylight (5000K) A21 Dimmable LED Light Bulb http://thd.co/1qdUTvD Cree Daylight True and Natural 6 in. TW Series 65W Equivalent Daylight (5000K) Dimmable LED Retrofit Recessed Downlight http://thd.co/1D3JWmc Heres what has worked for me with no flicker in my lamps. (and in my 6" recessed cans for strictly test purposes) [Now both are discontinued] Some tech specs on these Philips: http://www.ledbenchmark.com/display.php?id=172&name=Philips+11W+Dimmable+AmbientLED+Daylight Lutron Dimmers confirmed working: http://www.lutron.com/en-US/ResourceLibrary/LEDReportCard/Report%20Card%20Philips%20921%209290002296%2011W%202013%20JAN-Rev2.0.15%20RevA.pdf Edited January 22, 2016 by huddadudda
Teken Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 Yeah a little disappointing to say the least in that its so hard to find high output LED bulbs that either don't make any hum, buzzing, or flicker. The only thing worse is if it impacts the Insteon network along with that odd stepped dimming look. It took me about a week to purchase ten different brands and models until I found the ones that just worked perfectly for me. I was pretty surprised to see many others who purchased HD Cree bulbs seeing negative results and chalked that up to improper use or bad stock. Having seen three identical sites using the same three models of Cree bulbs ranging from 60, 75, 100 watts and all of them showing the same issue about 30-60 days out was a little depressing. My view is the race to the bottom in terms of price is impacting the over all quality in the market place. Sadly, I can't explain how a $28.XX bulb would be considered cheap for one single bulb and not have some kind of quality in it?!?! I could probably accept it if the bulb was like $5.XX and chalk it up to being just a cheap aszz. But in this case I've found the current shipping Cree bulbs simply don't offer any long term use and reliability that works with Insteon. Thanks for the quick review and feed back I was hoping you would find a few Cree bulbs that worked. Can you indicate the production date of those 100 watt units? Lastly, don't forget to offer a review on the HD website as its important to share that information to the next potential buyer. I normally don't take much stalk in reviews depending upon the sales channel. But when you see dozens of *current* reviews all saying the same thing from across North America. You have to take that feed back with some consideration . . .
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