Terrible communication on new install

[Jay M]

This might be an uncommon scenario. We have one room at work where all of the overhead LED lights use the insteon ballast dimmers.

 

There are about 18 fixtures that each have their own ballast dimmer.  The voltage is 277.

 

We are currently using one 6-button keypad to control everything.

 

I have all of the lights in a scene.

 

When I recall the scene, some lights maybe not come on, or there might be a long delay.  When I turn the lights off, some lights might stay on, while others do what they should.  About 1 out of 5 times, all the lights will do what they are supposed to to do.

 

The keypad is on the same circuit as all of the lights.  The ballast dimmers are enclosed within the metal housing in each light fixture.  I assume that greatly limits the RF ability.

 

In testing all of this, we had all of the lights powered by an extension cord on a 120v circuit with the keypad on a separate 277v circuit.  For some reason, it was much more reliable.

 

There happens to be one particular fixture that is always the most troublesome.  Could that one device be the cause of our trouble?

 

Thanks for your help!  

 

~Jay

[Techman]

This might be an uncommon scenario. We have one room at work where all of the overhead LED lights use the insteon ballast dimmers.

 

There are about 18 fixtures that each have their own ballast dimmer.  The voltage is 277.

 

We are currently using one 6-button keypad to control everything.

 

I have all of the lights in a scene.

 

When I recall the scene, some lights maybe not come on, or there might be a long delay.  When I turn the lights off, some lights might stay on, while others do what they should.  About 1 out of 5 times, all the lights will do what they are supposed to to do.

 

The keypad is on the same circuit as all of the lights.  The ballast dimmers are enclosed within the metal housing in each light fixture.  I assume that greatly limits the RF ability.

 

In testing all of this, we had all of the lights powered by an extension cord on a 120v circuit with the keypad on a separate 277v circuit.  For some reason, it was much more reliable.

 

There happens to be one particular fixture that is always the most troublesome.  Could that one device be the cause of our trouble?

 

Thanks for your help!  

 

~Jay

 

 

 

It could be an issue with the LED bulbs you're using that may be creating noise on the powerline

It could be a bad ballast dimmer that creating noise on the powerline

 

I would start by taking the one troublesome fixture out of the equation to see if your problem goes away.

[stusviews]

If disconnecting the one fixture doesn't help, then take half out. If that doesn't help. then the problem is in the other half, so take half of those out. Continue until you find the problem fixture(s). There may be more than one. Or it may be a cumulative effect.

 

Are the fixtures all on one circuit?

[Jay M]

All are on one circuit.  

 

It seems to work a little better when I trigger a scene from the ISY console than from the kaypad.  The PC/PLM is on a 120v outlet.

 

~Jay

[stusviews]

Is the Keypad on a different circuit from the PLM? Have you verified that the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply are bridged?

[Brian H]

Stu,

How can a split single-phase system have 277 volts reported from the OP?

I thought 277 volts was in three phase systems.

[G W]

Stu,

How can a split single-phase system have 277 volts reported from the OP?

I thought 277 volts was in three phase systems.

Maybe is s FM circuit.

 

I'm Gary Funk and I approved this message.

[larryllix]

OP stated..."We have one room at work where..."

 

Obviously there are more than one phase involved here.

Likely a 277 / 440 , 3-phase 4-wire system and a lower voltage 120 volt system. This may be a split phase 120 / 240 volt system, or a 125 / 216 volt 3-phase, 4-wire system, from a delta / wye transformer. Many other configurations are possible there.

 

Since phase bridging cannot be done phase to phase across a 440 phase to phase voltage using a phase bridge it would have to be done via dual-band Insteon devices. Bringing in different voltage levels complicates this even further,

 

My suggestion is to bring in more dual-band Insteon devices, and try plugging in one or two, into nearby receptacles, close to the problem devices.

[stusviews]

Stu,

How can a split single-phase system have 277 volts reported from the OP?

I thought 277 volts was in three phase systems.

 

Correct, I missed that. Bridging a 3-phase system requires a dual-band device on each phase.

[Jay M]

I'll try to answer some questions. but I'm not an electrician.

 

As I understand it, in this commercial environment, we have 277 volts for lighting, and then a transformer for the 120v outlets.

 

The PLM is in a 120V outlet.  The keypad is on the 277v lighting circuit.

 

I've added a couple dual band lamp modules to other outlets hoping that it would make the network more robust.  

 

Within this new conference room there is a kitchen area with three lights, a keypad and a switch link.  The lights are 277v, but one or both of the switches are on 120v.

As a test, I tried turning off RF, and then turning off poweline to the ballast dimmers.  It's definitely best to keep both active.

 

We still haven't had time to remove the most problematic device.  Next week we'll try that.  

 

I wonder if 277v wiring isn't good for insteon?  

 

Today was the first meeting in the new room, and the lights behaved pretty good when triggered from the laptop.  The smooth transition from one scene to another was a beautiful thing to see. If I can get this working, I'll be a hero.  If not, then I'm the fool who suggested we waste $1800 and who knows how many man hours installing it.  Please help!!!

 

Thanks,

~Jay

 

 

please help!!!

[stusviews]

There s not a problem with a 3-phase electric supply. But, as has been suggested, ballasts often do put noise on the power line. The only way to determine if that's happening is to disconnect the offending device. Sometimes the effect is cumulative which is why I suggested disconnecting half of the ballasts as a test. It's also possible that only one or two ballasts are causing the difficulty.

 

Again, the only test is disconnecting the offending device(s). Filters are the cure.

[ELA]

  From information presented thus far it sounds like you have a typical commercial/industrial 480/277V three phase system.   In order to get 120V circuits there is another transformer to produce that.   The 120 V circuits could be part of a 208/120V three phase or other sub distribution.

    What is most significant is that you have isolation between your 277V system and your 120V sub system secondaries. The only safe/approved way to bridge that is via RF.

   To be a hero map out and diagram your electrical system, with an electricians help if needed.   Then intelligently place dual band devices to bridge phases as needed.

[Jay M]

I think I have a clue now.  You say to remove the offending ballasts, but these are LEDs, I don't think there are any ballasts.  BUT - the 270v system does have a hundred 16 year fluorescent fixtures.  

 

Maybe the easiest solution would be to put the new lights on a 120v circuit.  Is there a way to keep that circuit clean?

 

I'll see if we can map out what we already have.

 

thanks,

~Jay 

[Brian H]

They may have electronic LED Drivers in them. Some of them could also be power line signal sucker. As they probably have a a few parts across the AC power line input. To keep the internal noise off of the power lines. If it is just a few AC rated caps and with no choke coils. The capacitors would absorb Insteon Power line signals as noise.

[Jay M]

With all the great stuff the ISY does, this forum is really what makes it worth the expense.  

 

Thanks to this discussion we were able to solve the problem.  My best guess is interference from older fixtures that were on the same 277v line caused the problem.  As a test we used what the electrician called a "suicide line", which is an extension cord wired directly to the lights from a 120v outlet.

 

The results were nearly perfect. We ran the scenes multiple times from the keypad with 100% success.  the only failure was when I ran a scene from the laptop - a few lights didn't respond one time.

 

Next week, he'll properly wire the lighting to a 120v circuit.

 

Is there anything he can do to make sure that line is as clean as possible?

 

thanks,

~Jay

 

thanks,

~Jay

[Jay M]

Something odd happened.

 

Rewiring for 120V will take the better part of a day, so we planned to keep it at 277v for the next few weeks.

 

Yesterday, we went ahead and added a second keypad to the 277v line.  Now everything works perfectly.

 

Now we don't see a need to change to 120V.

 

Is it possible that adding one more device to the line made that big of a difference in the mesh network?

 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that all is good now

 

~Jay

[stusviews]

Yes, increasing the number of dual-band devices usually increases reliability and range of an Insteon network. That's because dual-band devices repeat any signal received from anywhere on the Insteon network, both on the power line and via RF.

[ELA]

Nothing odd happened.

If you spent the day rewiring to keep everything on one phase then bridging to the others is not required. Most do not care to go that route.

 

 Sounds like you are working with two different three phase systems and attempting to bridge between them.

The basics of a single phase split secondary 240/120 (like in a home) is that you should couple between the 2 phases/legs.

The basics on a three phase system is that you should couple between all 3 phases.   Sounds like you are two thirds of the way there.

[Jay M]

Actually, they were and still are not only on the same phase, but the same circuit.  They are all in the same room, and chained together.

 

All of the ballast dimmers are dual-band.

 

By disconnecting from the 277V circuit and then connecting to the 120V circuit and back again the 277V, we power-cycled the entire system.  I wonder if that solved the problem.

 

Either way, I'm happy it all works. 

 

~Jay

[ELA]

I'll try to answer some questions. but I'm not an electrician.

 

As I understand it, in this commercial environment, we have 277 volts for lighting, and then a transformer for the 120v outlets.

 

The PLM is in a 120V outlet.  The keypad is on the 277v lighting circuit.

 

I've added a couple dual band lamp modules to other outlets hoping that it would make the network more robust.  

 

Within this new conference room there is a kitchen area with three lights, a keypad and a switch link.  The lights are 277v, but one or both of the switches are on 120v.

As a test, I tried turning off RF, and then turning off poweline to the ballast dimmers.  It's definitely best to keep both active.

 

We still haven't had time to remove the most problematic device.  Next week we'll try that.  

 

I wonder if 277v wiring isn't good for insteon?  

 

Today was the first meeting in the new room, and the lights behaved pretty good when triggered from the laptop.  The smooth transition from one scene to another was a beautiful thing to see. If I can get this working, I'll be a hero.  If not, then I'm the fool who suggested we waste $1800 and who knows how many man hours installing it.  Please help!!!

 

Thanks,

~Jay

 

 

please help!!!

[Brian H]

Insteon RF range maybe greatly reduced. When the 10 volt ballast dimmers are mounted inside a metal fixture.

The power line signal will most likely have to get through the transformer providing the 120 volts to the 277 volt feed transformer.

[Jay M]

Is he PLM being used when I trigger a scene from the keypad?

I thought scenes are stored in each dimmer, and the ISY is only used to create scenes.

 

I assume programs, timers, and IR would be done in the ISY.

 

~Jay

[stusviews]

The PLM is not needed once a scene is created. But the PLM is aware when the scene is run.

[Techman]

Is he PLM being used when I trigger a scene from the keypad?

I thought scenes are stored in each dimmer, and the ISY is only used to create scenes.

 

I assume programs, timers, and IR would be done in the ISY.

 

~Jay

 

Here's an excellent tutorial on scenes

 

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Working_With_Scenes_-_in-depth_tutorial