smberntsen Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 Hello. Two weeks ago, I purchased a couple of 2466SW on/off relay wall switches and a 2245-222 Insteon Hub to schedule/control these switches. I installed the first one without issue. I installed the second one initially without issue. Shortly after I scheduled the switches to come on at dusk, I found that the second one did not come on as intended. So, upon opening the app on my iPhone, I noticed the second switch was now offline. I tried to remove and readd the switch to no avail. I also tried a factory reset on the switch, and that still didn't work. (All the time, the switch still functioned as intended when using it manually as a switch to turn on and off the light.) So, I thought the communications in the switch must've gone bad, so I gave up and figured I'd call support later. I did call support and they said it sounded like the switch was bad and they were going to swap it out (because the first switch was still working fine). The next day, I decided on a whim to try to readd that second switch...and it added fine. I was able to control it fine from the app. Then, a few hours later, it was offline again. I didn't think much of it and just let it go. Then the following day, it was back online. So now I was really curious as to what was going on. I thought it still could be a faulty switch, so I was going to swap it out with the new switch when I received it (I haven't yet), but I wanted to dig a little deeper. After a couple of days of paying attention to the state of the switch, I found the problem. It seems that when another old-school manual light switch in the house was switched on, this 2466SW would no longer be visible to my 2245-222. Specifically, it was one of the overhead lights in my kitchen. The 2466SW in question is controlling the outside light over my garage. Honestly, I'm not sure if these lights are on the same breaker or not. But, I do know that my second set of kitchen lights, which I am fairly certain are on the same breaker as the first set, does NOT take the 2466SW offline. It's just this one specific overhead which is controlled by either of two switches on both sides of the kitchen. And either of the switches will take the 2466SW offline. So, my question is does anyone have any ideas? I was considering moving my 2245-222 to a different outlet in the house, but I'll need to prepare for an internet connection at that location, and I'm not even sure that that will make a difference because my other 2466SW has worked fine from the beginning and still does. So, I'm thinking the interference is with the other 2466SW itself, but could I find a better path for the 2245-222 that works for both switches? I'm not exactly sure how the signal travels that it could be blocked by turning on another light in the house, so any ideas or suggestions would be great! Thanks much! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 Hello. Two weeks ago, I purchased a couple of 2466SW on/off relay wall switches and a 2245-222 Insteon Hub to schedule/control these switches. I installed the first one without issue. I installed the second one initially without issue. Shortly after I scheduled the switches to come on at dusk, I found that the second one did not come on as intended. So, upon opening the app on my iPhone, I noticed the second switch was now offline. I tried to remove and readd the switch to no avail. I also tried a factory reset on the switch, and that still didn't work. (All the time, the switch still functioned as intended when using it manually as a switch to turn on and off the light.) So, I thought the communications in the switch must've gone bad, so I gave up and figured I'd call support later. I did call support and they said it sounded like the switch was bad and they were going to swap it out (because the first switch was still working fine). The next day, I decided on a whim to try to readd that second switch...and it added fine. I was able to control it fine from the app. Then, a few hours later, it was offline again. I didn't think much of it and just let it go. Then the following day, it was back online. So now I was really curious as to what was going on. I thought it still could be a faulty switch, so I was going to swap it out with the new switch when I received it (I haven't yet), but I wanted to dig a little deeper. After a couple of days of paying attention to the state of the switch, I found the problem. It seems that when another old-school manual light switch in the house was switched on, this 2466SW would no longer be visible to my 2245-222. Specifically, it was one of the overhead lights in my kitchen. The 2466SW in question is controlling the outside light over my garage. Honestly, I'm not sure if these lights are on the same breaker or not. But, I do know that my second set of kitchen lights, which I am fairly certain are on the same breaker as the first set, does NOT take the 2466SW offline. It's just this one specific overhead which is controlled by either of two switches on both sides of the kitchen. And either of the switches will take the 2466SW offline. So, my question is does anyone have any ideas? I was considering moving my 2245-222 to a different outlet in the house, but I'll need to prepare for an internet connection at that location, and I'm not even sure that that will make a difference because my other 2466SW has worked fine from the beginning and still does. So, I'm thinking the interference is with the other 2466SW itself, but could I find a better path for the 2245-222 that works for both switches? I'm not exactly sure how the signal travels that it could be blocked by turning on another light in the house, so any ideas or suggestions would be great! Thanks much! Steve Hello Steve, Unfortunately, you selected one of the only remaining Insteon lighting switches which are single band and not dual band. Based on your reply it looks to be a noise issue on that other switch. If you use the search feature and look up filters you will see a few different solutions that just might help you solve this issue. If you had room in the JB my suggestion is to install micro dimmers / micro switches to enable you to have dual band signaling while also keeping that retro toggle look. NOTE: Some of the recommended filters are the XPNR, and in some specific use cases installing a (Snubber) Snub filter also helps reduce electrical issues. Normally a snubber is installed parallel to the load and neutral wires. It should be noted snubbers are mainly used to offset and absorb CEMF from motors found in fans, exhaust, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 It does sound like you have power line interference and possibly phase coupling issues. I would also suggest a few Dual Band devices be added and the built in communications tests be done. To verify they are communicating with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 With the Insteon Hub, you cannot have different devices scheduled separately at the same schedule. The correct method is to create a scene with all the devices that have the same schedule and then control the scene. You can use different scenes for each On and Off if the On or Off times if they differ for each device. For example, if you have two devices with the same On, but different Off time, then you'll need three scenes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smberntsen Posted December 20, 2016 Author Share Posted December 20, 2016 Hello Steve, Unfortunately, you selected one of the only remaining Insteon lighting switches which are single band and not dual band. Based on your reply it looks to be a noise issue on that other switch. If you use the search feature and look up filters you will see a few different solutions that just might help you solve this issue. If you had room in the JB my suggestion is to install micro dimmers / micro switches to enable you to have dual band signaling while also keeping that retro toggle look. NOTE: Some of the recommended filters are the XPNR, and in some specific use cases installing a (Snubber) Snub filter also helps reduce electrical issues. Normally a snubber is installed parallel to the load and neutral wires. It should be noted snubbers are mainly used to offset and absorb CEMF from motors found in fans, exhaust, etc. The JB has 4 switches, so it's a bit tight. I'm new to using these devices, so I'm not sure how much larger one of these micro switches would be? Is there a part number I should look at that is dual band and still has that old style size? Mostly I ask because finding a wall plate with one large opening for a dimmer style and three standard openings is a challenge to say the least. I will search for filter posts on the forum as well. Thanks for the help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 The JB has 4 switches, so it's a bit tight. I'm new to using these devices, so I'm not sure how much larger one of these micro switches would be? Is there a part number I should look at that is dual band and still has that old style size? Mostly I ask because finding a wall plate with one large opening for a dimmer style and three standard openings is a challenge to say the least. I will search for filter posts on the forum as well. Thanks for the help! The Micro Modules were created to offer another means of home automation integration for the masses. Like you, there are a lot of people who have enjoyed the retro look whether it be using the toggle, button, to paddle. The micro dimmer, relay, modules were intended to fit into a sufficiently sized JB or installed at the light fixture. The physical dimensions are listed in the specification tab: http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2443-222-micro-on-off-module.html NOTE: The Micro Dimmer does not offer the same power handling vs the standard switch / toggle lincs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smberntsen Posted December 20, 2016 Author Share Posted December 20, 2016 Would installing something like the http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2992-222-range-extender.html somewhere maybe on the same circuit as the 2466SW that's going offline help as well? Or what about just this http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2635-222-on-off-module.html? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Would installing something like the http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2992-222-range-extender.html somewhere maybe on the same circuit as the 2466SW that's going offline help as well? Or what about just this http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2635-222-on-off-module.html? If we only assume your problem is a lack coupling / bridging issue than either device will fit the bill nicely. If I had to choose I would opt for the On-Off relay plugin module as it offers several new features not seen in the older legacy hardware. Plus it offers you dual use because the RE offers nothing besides coupling RF to Powerline. Obviously if you need a dimmer some where you should choose the dimmer linc. But note the features I listed below are not included in the plugin Lamp Linc - Disable RF vs Powerline - Smart Hops - Message clean up - Blink on Error / TX / RX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smberntsen Posted December 24, 2016 Author Share Posted December 24, 2016 Thanks for all the info! Before I go out and buy these other devices, is it worth it for me to even try relocating the 2245-222 Hub to a different power outlet? I'd have to find a place I could get some CAT-5 to so I can put it on the internet, but is that even worth the effort in this case? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted December 24, 2016 Share Posted December 24, 2016 Anytime you can do something for free by investing some time and effort - Yes! ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 24, 2016 Share Posted December 24, 2016 An easy test is to use an extension cord to power the Hub from a different location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smberntsen Posted December 29, 2016 Author Share Posted December 29, 2016 Hello again. So, I tried moving the hub to a couple of different locations in the house where I could reach either a CAT-5 or an extension cord. There were no immediate wins there. One thing I didn't try with each of these attempts was to remove and re-add the 2466SW to the hub. Should I have done that? That's the first question... Also, in the meantime, I purchased a couple 2635-222 modules and dropped those in to outlets that I think (not sure...) are on the same circuit as the offending 2466SW. They added fine to the hub and can be controlled fine with or without the rogue overhead light on or off. But, with the rogue overhead on and these new 2635-222s in place, I still cannot control the offending 2466SW. I'm wondering if I need to remove the 2466SW after these new devices have been added and attempt to re-add it with the rogue light on. Would that force the communications to bridge from power line to RF? Does the hub remember that it has only connected to the 2466SW via power line in the past and not even attempt to bridge with RF? I'm not sure of the innards of how the hub tries different paths, or if it even does. I suppose that's a multi-part second question. Thanks so much for everyone's input so far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 If the 2466 and 2635 are, in fact, on the same circuit, then that a sure indication that there's power line interference. You can check the circuit by turning off the breaker that powers the 2635. If you lose power to the 2466, then they are on the same circuit. The Hub works exactly the same as the PLM when it comes to adding devices because the Hub is a PLM. And yes, you can try removing and reinstalling the ToggleLinc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smberntsen Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 OK, update: At the suggestion of the Insteon support folks, I moved the hub so that it's no longer plugged into an extension cord and is now plugged directly into the wall. Also, I've performed a factory reset on the 2466SW that was having the communication issues and re-added it to the hub. First, I tried re-adding it to the hub with the communication-blocking overhead light turned on in the hopes that doing that would force the hub and 2466SW to use either of the plug in modules to bridge the communications from power line to RF. That didn't work. So, I turned off the overhead light and re-added the 2466SW without issue. But, as you can probably surmise, I still cannot communicate with the 2466SW with the overhead light on. I'm certainly open to any more suggestions. Should I try adding a range extender as well? Or a bridge? Any other thoughts? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 You may want to find a way to filter the problem light from the power lines? It is possible the light is making so much noise the modules think there is communications traffic and holding off until the line is quiet. Do you have some Dual Band modules on both incoming lines and have used the built in communications tests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smberntsen Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 Do you have some Dual Band modules on both incoming lines and have used the built in communications tests? I'm not sure how to do that. The only Dual Band devices I have are the 2635-222s. Do those have built in communications tests? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Yes page 17 of the full users manual. Beacon Test in the manual flow chart. I would try the older method first and see if it works. It does on my older firmware models. Tap the Set Button four times and see if the test starts. http://cache-m2.smarthome.com/manuals/2635-222.pdf You may see some of our posts talking about the 4 Tap Test now called the Beacon Test or Communications Test. You start the test and then look at the LED on other dual band modules. They will flash if receiving the test RF signals and depending on Red {same} or Green {opposite} indicate on the same or opposite phase of the incoming power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 If tapping rapidly four times doesn't start the test, then you probably didn't tap fast enough. The four taps need to occur very, very quickly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Even if you're able to confirm proper coupling / bridging via the 4 tap beacon test of the single split phase electrical panel. It will not supersede the need to either replace, remove, or filter the offending noise maker / signal sucker. You will quickly find out the Insteon network is unreliable and this ultimately impacts the WAF and your long term satisfaction with home automation. Please consider buying some of the listed filters up above . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smberntsen Posted December 31, 2016 Author Share Posted December 31, 2016 UPDATE: With your talk of filters and with someone in another forum asking me what kind of bulbs I had in the interfering fixture, it got me to try something (which honestly I should've tried from the get-go). I started removing the bulbs one by one (there were three in the fixture) and, low and behold, I found the offending bulb. It was a Philips Marathon Mini Decorative Twister 23W. I replaced that with another Philips A19 bulb (60W replacement that uses 43W) and everything works as intended, lights on or off! Not sure why I didn't try removing the load in the first place, but all's well that ends well. So, hopefully others can learn from this as well. It seems that any time you have one of these bulbs on the same breaker as a power-line only switch, there's a good chance you'll run into some issues. Thanks again to everyone for all the help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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