MrWorf Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Has anyone ever had a KeypadLinc Dimmer (8 buttons) which won't turn off the lights attached to the dimmer? Normally, an insteon device will always control the locally connected light without any way of overriding that behavior, but I have one which will turn on the connected light but not turn it off. The logs show that the KeypadLinc is issuing what seems to be a turn on command even though it's turned on already. However, another insteon device is able to issue a off command which it responds to. Here's the corresponding logs from ISY: Sun 01/22/2017 09:25:16 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 40.FC.B3 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00) Sun 01/22/2017 09:25:16 PM : [Std-Group ] 40.FC.B3-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 01/22/2017 09:25:16 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [40 FC B3 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 01/22/2017 09:25:16 PM : [ 40 FC B3 1] DON 0 Sun 01/22/2017 09:25:16 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 40.FC.B3 40.52.B4 40 11 01 LTONRR (01) Sun 01/22/2017 09:25:16 PM : [Std-Cleanup ] 40.FC.B3-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=0, Hops Left=0 Sun 01/22/2017 09:25:16 PM : [INST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Sun 01/22/2017 09:25:16 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 40.FC.B3 11.04.01 CF 06 00 (00) Sun 01/22/2017 09:25:16 PM : [Std-Group ] 40.FC.B3-->11.04.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Sun 01/22/2017 09:25:16 PM : [INST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. 40.FC.B3 is the offending KeypadLinc ... When I compared the links on the device with ISY, there was discrepancies found. Which is odd since I did a complete walkthrough end of last year, doing compare and restore until all devices matched ISY database, so I know this one was correct earlier, and now it's corrupted. Did a new restore today and now it's back to showing identical. But still, the most worrisome thing here is that the 1st button, which controls the connected load, was not allowing me to turn it off, only on. Is this an indication that the entire thing is broken? If anyone wonders, it's controlling 4x 60w equivalent CREE LED lights. These kind of lights are used throughout our home without any issues, both with SwitchLinc Dimmers and other KeypadLincs. Link to comment
stusviews Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 The most common reason for an Insteon device to be able to turn on a load, but not off is an incompatible load. What is the load, CFL, LED, transformer. incandescent, other? Link to comment
MrWorf Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 It's controlling 4x 60w equivalent CREE LED lights. These kind of lights are used throughout our home without any issues, both with SwitchLinc Dimmers and other KeypadLinc Dimmers. The KeypadLinc was able to turn off the load IF I pressed OFF on another device which controlled it (ie, another member in the same scene). But direct control didn't work. After I restored the device and confirmed the links last night, it worked again. This morning, less than 12hrs later, one record in the device link table is corrupt again. ISY has it showing: E2 01 40.52.B4 01 00 01 While the KeypadLinc Dimmer claims: EA 01 40.52.B4 01 00 01 Which, according to http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/15893-losing-control-of-dimmer/?do=findComment&comment=136807 is OK, but I'm still concerned about the fact that yesterday multiple records were corrupted (and not just the E2 vs EA issue). And the fact that the button on the dimmer was unable to turn it off even though the other members in the same scene was able to. Is there any diagnostics mode for KeypadLincs to find out if it's broken? Link to comment
Brian H Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 You don't by chance. Have the Local Button Ramp rate set to something like 8 minutes? The Off button may not look iike it is working if it is ramping so slow. Link to comment
kck Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I had one of my KPLs fail this way. Then the triac dies it can die off or die on it seems. Assuming that this worked at some point in the past I suspect your dimmer is dead. ETA: rereading your post I'm not sure if the load can be turned off from elsewhere. If so then my diagnosis is wrong since the load control is working. But if you're saying that the switch reports the load off but the load stays on in all cases then the load control is dead but the logical control in the switch is working. (BTW - if the dimmer is dead and the switch out of warrantee then I have repurposed such switches to spots where no local control is used but a KPL is desired to run other scenes.) Link to comment
Techman Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Try removing power from the KPL for about 10 seconds by puling out the set button. If that didn't help then try a factory reset / restore device. I've had several KPL's act up when there has been a surge on the power line. The reset seems to work for me. Link to comment
stusviews Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 If the rest doesn't work, remove all the bulbs and replace one with an incandescent bulb. Any success? Link to comment
MrWorf Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 So the KeypadLinc Dimmer now works after the restore. But now another KeypadLinc Dimmer is behaving similarly. It's unable to properly handle a scene which controls the light in an adjacent room. I've tried air gapping it but it does not help. It's able to issue the power on, but it never realizes that power has changed. The room light turns on and other controllers (including the previous day KeypadLinc Dimmer) is showing the correct status. I've tried unplugging EVERY SINGLE electrical item on that circuit but it made no difference. I've airgapped all other devices which are related to this scene and still no change. ISY reports this when I press the scene button and the lights come on in the room (but the Keylinc Dimmer shows it as off): Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 28.A0.AA 00.00.04 CF 11 00 LTONRR (00) Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [Std-Group ] 28.A0.AA-->Group=4, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [28 A0 AA 4] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [ 28 A0 AA 4] DON 0 Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [22 65 BE 1] [ST] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [ 22 65 BE 1] ST 255 Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [28 A0 AA 4] [ST] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [ 28 A0 AA 4] ST 255 Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [40 FC B3 4] [ST] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [ 40 FC B3 4] ST 255 Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 28.A0.AA 11.01.04 CF 06 00 (00) Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [Std-Group ] 28.A0.AA-->11.01.04, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/23/2017 06:10:14 PM : [INST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. 28 A0 AA is the offending KeypadLinc Dimmer 22 65 BE is the device being controlled (ie, has the lights connected) 40 FC B3 is the previously erratic KeypadLinc Dimmer Issuing on from the 40 FC B3 device results in this output: Mon 01/23/2017 06:16:59 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 40.FC.B3 00.00.04 CF 11 00 LTONRR (00) Mon 01/23/2017 06:16:59 PM : [Std-Group ] 40.FC.B3-->Group=4, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3 Mon 01/23/2017 06:16:59 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [40 FC B3 4] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/23/2017 06:16:59 PM : [ 40 FC B3 4] DON 0 Mon 01/23/2017 06:16:59 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [22 65 BE 1] [ST] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/23/2017 06:16:59 PM : [ 22 65 BE 1] ST 255 Mon 01/23/2017 06:16:59 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [28 A0 AA 4] [ST] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/23/2017 06:16:59 PM : [ 28 A0 AA 4] ST 255 Mon 01/23/2017 06:16:59 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [40 FC B3 4] [ST] [255] uom=0 prec=-1 Mon 01/23/2017 06:16:59 PM : [ 40 FC B3 4] ST 255 Mon 01/23/2017 06:17:00 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 40.FC.B3 40.52.B4 45 11 04 LTONRR (04) Mon 01/23/2017 06:17:00 PM : [Std-Cleanup ] 40.FC.B3-->ISY/PLM Group=4, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=1 Mon 01/23/2017 06:17:00 PM : [INST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Mon 01/23/2017 06:17:00 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 40.FC.B3 11.03.04 CB 06 00 (00) Mon 01/23/2017 06:17:00 PM : [Std-Group ] 40.FC.B3-->11.03.04, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Mon 01/23/2017 06:17:00 PM : [INST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. And it works. Another difference is that the working device will change indicator to ON almost immediately, while the non-functional one will flash the pressed scene button and give up. In both cases, the light in the room turns on but only on the 40.* device will the button show the status. I've recorded a video of this and will share as soon as it's available on youtube since a video says more than a thousand words. I'm also factory resetting it to see if it helps. Link to comment
Teken Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 If the rest doesn't work, remove all the bulbs and replace one with an incandescent bulb. Any success? ^ Link to comment
MrWorf Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 ^ I thought it was clear from my posts that the device itself is able to control the connected load, it's just that (in case #1) that the keypad ON the device wouldn't work while all other members of the scene could control it. And in case #2 the device which was malfunctioning wasn't the one with the attached load. So the testing you're proposing isn't useful and in my case impossible since these lights are built-in LEDs and cannot be changed without replacing the can in the ceiling. Link to comment
MrWorf Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 Here's the video showing the issue I was having last night: https://goo.gl/photos/EAqu3emBCvZHZdhC6 The device which is malfunctioning isn't connected the load (which might be obvious since I'm not using button #1 but hey ) I resolved it by factory reset the device, but I'm concerned that TWO devices in TWO days malfunctioned the same way, with the only difference being that on one device it wasn't able to toggle its own load locally but it worked from any other member of the scene. Link to comment
Teken Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 I thought it was clear from my posts that the device itself is able to control the connected load, it's just that (in case #1) that the keypad ON the device wouldn't work while all other members of the scene could control it. And in case #2 the device which was malfunctioning wasn't the one with the attached load. So the testing you're proposing isn't useful and in my case impossible since these lights are built-in LEDs and cannot be changed without replacing the can in the ceiling. Here's the video showing the issue I was having last night: https://goo.gl/photos/EAqu3emBCvZHZdhC6 The device which is malfunctioning isn't connected the load (which might be obvious since I'm not using button #1 but hey ) I resolved it by factory reset the device, but I'm concerned that TWO devices in TWO days malfunctioned the same way, with the only difference being that on one device it wasn't able to toggle its own load locally but it worked from any other member of the scene. Everything I've seen points to - a few possible issues: - KPL's are being impacted by the LED load which you stated can not be removed because they are integrated into the housing. Normally a person would remove the load and replace with a incandescent and the results would be self evident. In your case you will never know because nothing can be removed unless you go through the effort to do so. 100% of the time if a load can be turned on but can't be turned off its the load. If a device restore fix's the issue / hard reset its because the load is locking up the KPL and can also make it corrupt links in the hardware. You will probably find replacing the switches to solve the issue in the near term but rest assured that is a band aid because more than likely they too will become erratic / damaged. Moving forward your choices are to replace one single LED unit and see what happens. Or to purchase and install a few inline filters to see if that resolves the issues. In line filters will not resolve feedback issues and if that is the problem a snubber is the correct tool to use. These are the line filters that may help: https://www.x10.com/xpnr-noise-reducer.html This is one of many quality snubbers used by others: http://www.redlion.net/accessory/snub-r-c-snubber-inductive-load-supressor Link to comment
MrWorf Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 In case #1, the KPL could turn off the load, no problem, just the local button on the KPL didn't work at all, neither on/off In case #2, the KPL isn't even controlling the load. It's simply issuing the DON/DOF command to the scene, which is connected to a SwitchLinc Dimmer which works just fine. It did however show the correct state once the state was changed from any other member of the scene. All other buttons worked except for the office button. Even the on/off for the 2x 10w LED lights (yes, same kind). The real pain I see here is that my entire house runs on LED lighting connected to SwitchLinc or KeypadLinc Dimmers. If the snubber solves this, that would be awesome. But what I don't get is that Insteon lists the devices as compatible with LED lighting (incandescent lighting and inductive Loads, see http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2334-222-keypad-dimmer-switch-dual-band-8-button-white.html, specs section) ... Is there any way to confirm that my LED lights are inductive ? Link to comment
Techman Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 I think the problem may be in your scene and not the hardware Run a scene test and post the results Link to comment
Teken Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 In case #1, the KPL could turn off the load, no problem, just the local button on the KPL didn't work at all, neither on/off In case #2, the KPL isn't even controlling the load. It's simply issuing the DON/DOF command to the scene, which is connected to a SwitchLinc Dimmer which works just fine. It did however show the correct state once the state was changed from any other member of the scene. All other buttons worked except for the office button. Even the on/off for the 2x 10w LED lights (yes, same kind). The real pain I see here is that my entire house runs on LED lighting connected to SwitchLinc or KeypadLinc Dimmers. If the snubber solves this, that would be awesome. But what I don't get is that Insteon lists the devices as compatible with LED lighting (incandescent lighting and inductive Loads, see http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2334-222-keypad-dimmer-switch-dual-band-8-button-white.html, specs section) ... Is there any way to confirm that my LED lights are inductive ? Everything you've state thus far along with the video points to a noise from the LED loads. Whether they are noise makers vs signal suckers depends upon what the designers have placed inside of the hardware. Generally speaking anytime there are high value capacitors in place they will filter signals. Noise makers generally speaking come from the power supply of the internal ballasts of the hardware. The KPL you referenced does not formally support LED lighting . . . There are only two Insteon products that do which are the ILL and the other I don't recall off the top of my head. A snubber is normally used for items which offer CEMF / kick back like from a fan motor etc. The only reason I offered up the snubber is sometimes LED fixtures do a very poor handling of voltage field handling. A lay person would inquire WTF does voltage field handling mean?!? Basically when you see a LED fixture that tuns off abruptly at 10 to 5% of brightness this is the voltage field handling. Many LED fixtures will kick out huge amounts of voltage when it turns off. Engineers will *Normally* include filters to absorb this voltage spike. Many do a pretty good job while others not so much . . . NOTE: Using a random Snubber can depending upon where its placed on the circuit will impact the Insteon signal. This is why very specific Snubbers with the qualified capacitance value is called out for use. Link to comment
MrWorf Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 I just find it odd it would take 5 years to happen to one KPL for case #2 and a few months for case #1 and every other KPL (4 more) work fine at 5years with 2-6 LEDs of the exact same make and brand (yeah, I know, I jinxed it now ). Link to comment
Teken Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 When electronics age things start to happen. Keep in mind older Insteon hardware such as the KPL have been impacted by the very same capacitor issues seen on the 2413S PLM. This could all be a sign the KPL's and not the load is the issue. Depends how old your KPL are and also if they all have the better 100~240 VAC PSU inside. ========================= The highest calling in life is to serve ones country faithfully - Teach others what can be. Do what is right and not what is popular. Link to comment
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