ISY not updating status

[ScottHome]

Hello all - long time reader, first time caller... 

I've been able to resolve everything so far by just reading everyone's helpful advice, but this one has me flummoxed. 

 

My ISY has stopped receiving status updates from devices (discovered when garage close program failed to trigger, wife left garage open overnight and lost some freezer pies to stoner teenagers). 

 

Control works ok, all devices I test respond to admin console and Agave commands, time based programs work ok, but no updates back to ISY (then admin or Agave) are received. Only a query device command updates the status. This all used to work fine months ago when I was last futzing around with the irrigation. 

 

I've read several threads about something similar, but no measures seem to solve my problem. 

 

1. Some threads suggest the 900+ PLM link table limit problem - mine consistently reads 72 links (multiple runs, watching Event Viewer level 3 ensuring no interfering traffic, etc). I think this is low - I have about 20 switchlinc dimmers, a half dozen open/close sensors, five outlet lincs, two io-linc garage door controllers, an EZFlora, 8x3-way scenes and a few others, and 3 thermostats. The link estimator seems to be inaccurate for some people, but I think I should have at least a few hundred. 

Restoring the PLM gives me the same number of links and no change in the problem. Restoring all devices doesn't help either. Restoring ISY to a backup a few months old doesn't solve the problem, after restore the PLM has only 42 (hah, "Don't Panic") links (fewer devices then). Not sure but don't think the problem was present for that backup. 

 

2. Everyone always queries comms problems - watching level 3 event viewer, I see most comms are 2 or 3 hops left. With all the restore device comms flying around, maybe one every 5 or 10 restores I miss comms with one device, which works fine when write updates manually immediately after. My dimmers are all dual band, and scattered pretty well around the house. Battery devices obviously excluded until addressed manually one at a time. The PLM is plugged in next to the electronics rack, but has been it's whole life, and I haven't changed any electronics for more than a year. 

 

3. PLM - This one is 2413S V2.1 1543, and has been good for several years. I've had one go bad, replaced just over 2 years old on warranty.  I ran across one thread that mentioned flaky link tables as a PLM failing issue, but most PLM fails seem consistent with my previous experience of lost comms entirely (dim led, etc). My PLM can clearly send (query, restore traffic, commands) and receive (ack, device link tables, etc) just fine in large quantities. 

 

Conclusion:  The core of the issue is the PLM is not recognizing status messages from any device. I know the switches are sending, as scenes written to them (3way setups, etc) work, but the PLM doesn't see (or ignores) the messages (even in Level 3 Event Viewer) even though it is capable of send and receive.  Then the Admin Console and Agave and programs don't update status and trigger. I think the garage iolincs are sending, their leds respond correctly (although no comms visible on Event Viewer level 3), but the problem is much more widespread than just those sensors. 

 

Any thoughts? 

 

Thanks, 

Scott. 

 

 

[paulbates]

Hello all - long time reader, first time caller... 

I've been able to resolve everything so far by just reading everyone's helpful advice, but this one has me flummoxed. 

 

Any thoughts? 

 

Thanks, 

Scott. 

 

Hi Scott, welcome to the forums!

 

This sounds like a PLM that is dying and needs to be replaced. It can happen over a number of weeks. In this case, its lost the ability to retain its links table, so when messages come from switches and sensors, they don't compare and match for the ISY recognize. However, the ISY can still form messages to the switches and send through the PLM

 

Paul

[stusviews]

I agree with Paul. An early indication of a failing PLM is an unusually low link count.

[Teken]

Hello all - long time reader, first time caller... 

I've been able to resolve everything so far by just reading everyone's helpful advice, but this one has me flummoxed. 

 

My ISY has stopped receiving status updates from devices (discovered when garage close program failed to trigger, wife left garage open overnight and lost some freezer pies to stoner teenagers). 

 

Control works ok, all devices I test respond to admin console and Agave commands, time based programs work ok, but no updates back to ISY (then admin or Agave) are received. Only a query device command updates the status. This all used to work fine months ago when I was last futzing around with the irrigation. 

 

I've read several threads about something similar, but no measures seem to solve my problem. 

 

1. Some threads suggest the 900+ PLM link table limit problem - mine consistently reads 72 links (multiple runs, watching Event Viewer level 3 ensuring no interfering traffic, etc). I think this is low - I have about 20 switchlinc dimmers, a half dozen open/close sensors, five outlet lincs, two io-linc garage door controllers, an EZFlora, 8x3-way scenes and a few others, and 3 thermostats. The link estimator seems to be inaccurate for some people, but I think I should have at least a few hundred. 

Restoring the PLM gives me the same number of links and no change in the problem. Restoring all devices doesn't help either. Restoring ISY to a backup a few months old doesn't solve the problem, after restore the PLM has only 42 (hah, "Don't Panic") links (fewer devices then). Not sure but don't think the problem was present for that backup. 

 

2. Everyone always queries comms problems - watching level 3 event viewer, I see most comms are 2 or 3 hops left. With all the restore device comms flying around, maybe one every 5 or 10 restores I miss comms with one device, which works fine when write updates manually immediately after. My dimmers are all dual band, and scattered pretty well around the house. Battery devices obviously excluded until addressed manually one at a time. The PLM is plugged in next to the electronics rack, but has been it's whole life, and I haven't changed any electronics for more than a year. 

 

3. PLM - This one is 2413S V2.1 1543, and has been good for several years. I've had one go bad, replaced just over 2 years old on warranty.  I ran across one thread that mentioned flaky link tables as a PLM failing issue, but most PLM fails seem consistent with my previous experience of lost comms entirely (dim led, etc). My PLM can clearly send (query, restore traffic, commands) and receive (ack, device link tables, etc) just fine in large quantities. 

 

Conclusion:  The core of the issue is the PLM is not recognizing status messages from any device. I know the switches are sending, as scenes written to them (3way setups, etc) work, but the PLM doesn't see (or ignores) the messages (even in Level 3 Event Viewer) even though it is capable of send and receive.  Then the Admin Console and Agave and programs don't update status and trigger. I think the garage iolincs are sending, their leds respond correctly (although no comms visible on Event Viewer level 3), but the problem is much more widespread than just those sensors. 

 

Any thoughts? 

 

Thanks, 

Scott. 

 

Scott,

 

If you can take a very long extension cord and wire the 2413S PLM to another *clean* and isolated outlet can you rinse & repeat the tests. Also, I want you to also take any device you feel is easy to fool around with and I want you to delete that single device. Once its deleted I want you to follow the hard reset process from the full users manual.

 

I want you to complete the hard reset several times to ensure its done.

 

Once complete add it back to the ISY Series Controller from there activate that device and confirm you see status change or not.

[ScottHome]

Thanks for the ideas. 

 

Per Teken's suggestions, I tried the extension cord test to a utility outlet wired directly next to the breaker panel, with nothing else on the circuit. No change, still not receiving status updates. No help from either ISY backup version restored to the PLM, or restore devices. 

 

I tried to plug the PLM directly into another outlet, with a 20ft Ethernet cable to the ISY. No change. 

 

I tried to move the ISY/PLM assembly to an outlet 6ft away from a problem Switchlinc, on the same branch (not arc-fault). No change. 

 

I then deleted a problem switchlinc from the ISY, hard reset several times, re-linked to ISY, and now consistently receive updates from it only. Other switchlincs are still not heard. PLM link count incremented by 1, now 73. 

 

Conclusion: Incorrect PLM link table in ISY and PLM, backup not restoring it. 

So, re-add any device that doesn't status update? Ugh. 

Any suggestions for streamlining the rebuild process? 

 

Thanks, 

Scott

[stusviews]

The count you got, 73, is really low for the number of devices you reported, really, really low. Together with you other difficulty, that's an indication of a failing PLM.

[Teken]

Thanks for the ideas. 

 

Per Teken's suggestions, I tried the extension cord test to a utility outlet wired directly next to the breaker panel, with nothing else on the circuit. No change, still not receiving status updates. No help from either ISY backup version restored to the PLM, or restore devices. 

 

I tried to plug the PLM directly into another outlet, with a 20ft Ethernet cable to the ISY. No change. 

 

I tried to move the ISY/PLM assembly to an outlet 6ft away from a problem Switchlinc, on the same branch (not arc-fault). No change. 

 

I then deleted a problem switchlinc from the ISY, hard reset several times, re-linked to ISY, and now consistently receive updates from it only. Other switchlincs are still not heard. PLM link count incremented by 1, now 73. 

 

Conclusion: Incorrect PLM link table in ISY and PLM, backup not restoring it. 

So, re-add any device that doesn't status update? Ugh. 

Any suggestions for streamlining the rebuild process? 

 

Thanks, 

Scott

 

Hello Scott,

 

Thanks for circling back with the group and have to agree with the others it sound like the 2413S PLM is out the door. Since your 2413S PLM is still under the two year warranty coverage please do engage Smarthome for a RMA and have them *Cross Dock* the claim. That will charge your CC immediately but will allow them to send out a replacement ASAP.

 

Upon receipt of the replacement 2413S PLM you will ship back the old unit with the return label.

 

Its been stated many times in this forum and others the hardware is now using revision 2.4X. I won't lie to anyone having watched for the last four years straight since the 2.XX hardware revision has come out.

 

I don't expect these 2.4X PLM to last two years either!!

 

UDI needs to make a renewed push with the new owner to get the UDI PLM back on track and into production. 

[stusviews]

My experience is that the CC charge will remain as "pending" until the defective device is received, then it'll disappear. Canada may be different.

[Teken]

My experience is that the CC charge will remain as "pending" until the defective device is received, then it'll disappear. Canada may be different.

 

Yes, they just charge it but they also don't include the free shipping label either!

[ScottHome]

Update - Spare PLM borrowed from brother swapped in, following correct "power down ISY, disconnect, reconnect, power up ISY, restore PLM" procedure. 

No change with new PLM. 

 

Link count now 74. 

 

This looks to me like a shortened/corrupted link table in the ISY. It persists despite full PLM swap and rearranging hardware, and resolves with reset and re-add device into the ISY. The ISY version of the PLM table it writes out to the PLM appears corrupt or shortened, and the incorrect version is written to the PLM despite the swap. 

 

Any way to smarten the ISY table up or compare to reality other than re-add a bunch of devices and rebuild a bunch of scenes and programs? 

 

Scott 

[Teken]

Update - Spare PLM borrowed from brother swapped in, following correct "power down ISY, disconnect, reconnect, power up ISY, restore PLM" procedure. 

No change with new PLM. 

 

Link count now 74. 

 

This looks to me like a shortened/corrupted link table in the ISY. It persists despite full PLM swap and rearranging hardware, and resolves with reset and re-add device into the ISY. The ISY version of the PLM table it writes out to the PLM appears corrupt or shortened, and the incorrect version is written to the PLM despite the swap. 

 

Any way to smarten the ISY table up or compare to reality other than re-add a bunch of devices and rebuild a bunch of scenes and programs? 

 

Scott 

 

Hello Scott, 

 

Just to be crystal clear the process is the following:

 

- Remove power from ISY Series Controller

- Remove Old 2413S PLM from power

- Plug in *New* 2413S PLM to outlet power & wait 10 seconds

- Apply power back to the ISY Series Controller

 

- You may have to perform a ISY Restore

- Once done you may complete the PLM Restore

- Sometimes you may also have to complete a device Restore

 

- If deleting and adding back hardware operates fine as ugly as that sounds. The time invested will save the hair on your head ~ Trust Me. 

[ScottHome]

My twins cost me the hair a long time ago! Thanks for the advice, though! 

 

Yes, that is the exact procedure I followed. Did not need to do an ISY restore, and the devices all were written to during the process, so didn't attempt a separate device update. 

At this point I am pretty sure the PLM table and Device tables are being updated consistently with the "incorrect" link table from the ISY. 

 

Sounds like the "Take off, Nuke from orbit" is the only way now. Save a clean restore point after the rebuild. 

 

Still not sure what caused the issue, though, and what might prevent it again. 

 

Scott

[Teken]

My twins cost me the hair a long time ago! Thanks for the advice, though! 

 

Yes, that is the exact procedure I followed. Did not need to do an ISY restore, and the devices all were written to during the process, so didn't attempt a separate device update. 

At this point I am pretty sure the PLM table and Device tables are being updated consistently with the "incorrect" link table from the ISY. 

 

Sounds like the "Take off, Nuke from orbit" is the only way now. Save a clean restore point after the rebuild. 

 

Still not sure what caused the issue, though, and what might prevent it again. 

 

Scott

 

Hello Scott,

 

If you select Tools -> Diagnostics -> PLM Info Status: Does the system reflect that new 2413S PLM Serial number? Also, if you're committed to starting from scratch this will be the only time selecting *Delete PLM Modem* would be advised.

 

- Your choices are to start from scratch is to hard reset the 2413S PLM as outlined by the full users manual.

- Select Delete PLM Modem as the second option to erase the hardware. I opt to use the above because its quicker and guaranteed to work.

- Next the ideal method is to delete all hardware from the system. Followed with hard reset of all the physical hardware than add it back into the system.

- From there you create all the associated links and scenes and reference back all the hardware to the programs you created.

 

- Print off the topology report to give you a general idea of whats connected to what. 

- I would highly advise you do this while everyone is gone from the house and have a tall cup of your favorite beverage and sweat pants.

 

Good luck and let us know how it ends up  . . .

[MrBill]

Don't discount the idea that it could be NOISE.

 

I've had two "incidents" that both turned out to be noise.

 

The first time even smarthome/insteon support was convinced I had a bad PLM, after changing it there was no effect.   

 

Incident #1 turned out to be a 2466SW that went bad in a lightning storm.  Once it was found and removed from the system everything was fine again.  It was a rarely used switch.

 

The second "incident" is an even more interesting story.  Out of the blue one day, a lot of things Insteon didn't work right... but a lot of things did. I knew that it had to be noise, there wasn't any other explanation.  The system is generally 100% stable and always works.  One of the things I noticed tho was nothing was making it back to the PLM.    If the PLM was the source it worked half the time, if the PLM was the receiver it never worked.   Most switches that were directly linked (i.e. close proximity and same circuit) always worked.  The problem was I couldn't figure out what could possibly be generating the noise: nothing new introduced or used differently and no recent events like a bad lightning storm. 

 

We limped along for a few days until I both had time and it was a day and time that no one would complain about me systematically flipping breakers.  Finally I flipped half the breakers off, problem didn't clear so I knew the problem was in the OTHER half, so I switched off half of the second half, the problem cleared-- I knew it was in that 1/4 of the breakers.  A little more trial and error and I had the problem nailed down to noise being generated by something on one breaker.

 

Investigating, issue turned out to the the kitchen counter DEEP FRYER.  Normally this device is only plugged in when it's in-use.  But it was left plugged in and turned off instead.  Unplug deep fryer, all Insteon works. Plug in deep fryer, all Insteon stops working due to noise.  I repeated the testing about 6 times in a row because I couldn't believe it.   Definitely the deep fryer is the problem tho.  Then I wondered why we hadn't ever noticed the problem before (the deep fryer might get 30 minutes of use  week, but even so we hadn't noticed ANY issues).  So I plugged the deep fryer in AND TURNED IT ON --> Insteon works!  So the only condition that causes Insteon to NOT work is deep fryer plugged in AND TURNED OFF. 

 

The moral of the story: ALWAYS eliminate noise before blaming a failing PLM.