Stinkin Christmas Lights

[apostolakisl]

Can someone explain this to me.  This is a recurring problem every year with multiple strands.

 

I put away our garland every year, carefully.  I actually leave it plugged in and working as I put it in its box to make sure it is working the whole way in.

 

I take it out the next year, and maybe 1 in 4 strands is dead!!!  Not dead after a flash of light or anything.  Just flat out nothing happens when plugged in.

 

I go through the bulbs and typically find 1/2 or more of the bulbs to have failed.  I don't get it.  The garland is stored in our home at regular indoor temp/humidity and is not physically touched while in storage.

 

We really like the garland we have, have a ton of it that all matches, and have all the sizing issues worked out so we know where it all goes every year.  In short, it is probably less work to repair the garland every year then it is to buy new.  

 

But regardless, it still is like WTF.  What in the world is the mechanism for this simultaneous death of 1/2 or more of the bulbs when coming out of storage?

 

I know about the bypass shunt on a burned out bulb, but the bypass shunt on these bulbs is still intact (infinite resistance on ohm meter).  So it follows that these bulbs burned out there fillaments simultaneously preventing the bypass to get the necessary 120v for opening it.

 

I can only surmise that the filaments are oxidizing or something as they sit in the box.  But, then why will 1 strand be 100% OK, and the next strand has 1/2 (or more) burned out.  

[paulbates]

I can confirm this too. Same procedure.. check them carefully before putting away and and then plug them in one more time packed... 1/2 of them DOA a year later. I have found a correlation to buying the cheapest ones off of the shelf.

 

I've been shifting to LEDs, and this year planning to invest of more of those for the house/yard.  I went to LEDs on the tree 4 years ago and that has worked out really well. (Virtually) no swearing of oaths setting up the tree since then

 

Paul

[apostolakisl]

I can confirm this too. Same procedure.. check them carefully before putting away and and then plug them in one more time packed... 1/2 of them DOA a year later. I have found a correlation to buying the cheapest ones off of the shelf.

 

I've been shifting to LEDs, and this year planning to invest of more of those for the house/yard.  I went to LEDs on the tree 4 years ago and that has worked out really well. (Virtually) no swearing of oaths setting up the tree since then

 

Paul

 

I have led's on the tree.  They are now on I want to say their 4th year also.  100% working, no fuss.

 

It looks like they now have led bulbs that can be swapped out with incandescent bulbs (presumably requires you do the whole strand).  I might try that and see how it goes.  Unfortunately the garland strands are the 35 bulb length and all available I have seen are 50 strand lights. 

[larryllix]

Can someone explain this to me.  This is a recurring problem every year with multiple strands.

 

I put away our garland every year, carefully.  I actually leave it plugged in and working as I put it in its box to make sure it is working the whole way in.

 

I take it out the next year, and maybe 1 in 4 strands is dead!!!  Not dead after a flash of light or anything.  Just flat out nothing happens when plugged in.

 

I go through the bulbs and typically find 1/2 or more of the bulbs to have failed.  I don't get it.  The garland is stored in our home at regular indoor temp/humidity and is not physically touched while in storage.

 

We really like the garland we have, have a ton of it that all matches, and have all the sizing issues worked out so we know where it all goes every year.  In short, it is probably less work to repair the garland every year then it is to buy new.  

 

But regardless, it still is like WTF.  What in the world is the mechanism for this simultaneous death of 1/2 or more of the bulbs when coming out of storage?

 

I know about the bypass shunt on a burned out bulb, but the bypass shunt on these bulbs is still intact (infinite resistance on ohm meter).  So it follows that these bulbs burned out there fillaments simultaneously preventing the bypass to get the necessary 120v for opening it.

 

I can only surmise that the filaments are oxidizing or something as they sit in the box.  But, then why will 1 strand be 100% OK, and the next strand has 1/2 (or more) burned out.  

A neighbour and I finally figured this out. The bulbs that go are the ones with resistors inside. Resistors are made with tinned iron leads. The iron rusts.

[oberkc]

All LEDs here.  Unfortunately, my experience with them is not as good as other here.  While the bulbs may last, the contacts can corrode and fail.  Still better than incandescent.

 

I was in aspen a couple of years ago and found it interesting that the winter decorations were treated as disposable.  The put them up each year, and cut them out at the end of the season, tossing the lights.

 

Wires and cables are impossible to keep organized.  There is a law in the world of physics that states when two or more cables are stored next to each other, they will entangle themselves in such a way as to be impossible to untangle.  I figure Christmas lights are subject to a similar law.

[mwester]

I've often suspected that the issue is corrosion-related -- I've noted that one often puts away the lights in the dead of winter, which generally means that the strings of lights are ice-cold when they're brought into a toasty warm (relatively humid) house.  Condensation is the inevitable result.  And I made it worse by carefully placing each string in it's own zip-lock bag, and storing that away -- thus ensuring that the damp lights are in an ideal environment to corrode.

 

LED strings are the answer -- and I've been buying the shorter strings as well, which make it less impactful when one has to toss a string (not to mention making disentangling a lot easier!).

 

For perspective on the cost of replacing the numerous strings of old lights -- the Insteon outdoor on/off controllers I have are an order of magnitude greater cost than the lights they control!

[paulbates]

For perspective on the cost of replacing the numerous strings of old lights -- the Insteon outdoor on/off controllers I have are an order of magnitude greater cost than the lights they control!

 

That's true. I have 4 outletlincs outside on the house and garage, used mostly for landscape and Christmas lighting. Given the move to LEDs, it will take 100 years to pay off in power savings 

[apostolakisl]

I have no gripe with tossing the standard $3 string of lights.  But the garland is a different story.  It is kind of pricey and not that easy to find nice looking good quality.  The only strands of lights that I fix each year are the garland.  Anything else that doesn't work I toss.  The deal is basically that we have about 15 strands of garland that all match and look good.  If I start tossing them, I'll need to replace all of them or they won't match.  And that is about $300.

 

Anyway, I've got the bulb replacement process streamlined.  I built a tester and I can replace a full strand in about 10 minutes.

 

The humidity/condensation doesn't apply to me.  Almost all of the garland is inside the whole time.  Plus, it is entirely possible that on Jan 7 when we take it all down, it might be 70 outside.  It will be today.

[larryllix]

I've often suspected that the issue is corrosion-related -- I've noted that one often puts away the lights in the dead of winter, which generally means that the strings of lights are ice-cold when they're brought into a toasty warm (relatively humid) house. Condensation is the inevitable result. And I made it worse by carefully placing each string in it's own zip-lock bag, and storing that away -- thus ensuring that the damp lights are in an ideal environment to corrode.

 

LED strings are the answer -- and I've been buying the shorter strings as well, which make it less impactful when one has to toss a string (not to mention making disentangling a lot easier!).

 

For perspective on the cost of replacing the numerous strings of old lights -- the Insteon outdoor on/off controllers I have are an order of magnitude greater cost than the lights they control!

That's a good concept!

 

It seems we should make sure all moisture is gone before storing them away in a sealed container.

 

Even a shot of silicone spray in the container before storage could help.

 

Sent from my SGH-I257M using Tapatalk

[stusviews]

Can someone explain this to me.  This is a recurring problem every year with multiple strands.

 

I put away our garland every year, carefully.  I actually leave it plugged in and working as I put it in its box to make sure it is working the whole way in 

 

Therein, IMO, is the problem. Incandescent bulbs, most especially tiny bulbs, have very thing filaments that are brittle when hot (lit). Moving them at that time makes it likely that the filaments will break the moment power is applied, if they're not already broken. I always let an incandescent bulb cool off before moving it.

[Ajax]

Just went thru this last night as well! Threw away 15 strands of lights that worked fine last year... Decided to go with LED strands, still shopping around, maybe you guys with good experience could list brands of what you use? My wife actually said I can try and find strands that can switch colors, but I have a hard time finding RGBW strands or even RGB strands that are controllable.

[larryllix]

Just went thru this last night as well! Threw away 15 strands of lights that worked fine last year... Decided to go with LED strands, still shopping around, maybe you guys with good experience could list brands of what you use? My wife actually said I can try and find strands that can switch colors, but I have a hard time finding RGBW strands or even RGB strands that are controllable.

They are all just rebranded names anyway so there is no consistency of quality.

 

You will get about 2 to 6 years out of any LED string used outside with moisture conditions. Usually spare LEDs will be supplied, but they are not the ones that typically fail. The ones that fail are the ones with the chain resistor inside. The iron leads on the resistors rust and contact is lost. With about 8 different socket designs I own, none of them are interchangeable, either.

 

Watch for the fuses in the strings too. The latest design I have has two micro fuses inside the plug module. Others have them in the string somewhere. 

 

Now they are advertising that one LED can burn out and the whole string won't go out, similar to the incandescent styles. Full circle.

[paulbates]

Just went thru this last night as well! Threw away 15 strands of lights that worked fine last year... Decided to go with LED strands, still shopping around, maybe you guys with good experience could list brands of what you use? My wife actually said I can try and find strands that can switch colors, but I have a hard time finding RGBW strands or even RGB strands that are controllable.

 

Costco had sylvania 100 strand white LED mini lights, 33 ft. Says 9.6 Watts.  I restrung a 60' section of synthetic pine roping with them. Also arranged them on bushes. They look and feel sturdier. Also, since I put in Patriot LED landscape lights a few years, which are a  little whiter than the old intermatics, the the look is a lot better and more balanced. I think they were $8 a strand... probably twice what I usually pay for the ones I replace every year.

 

If these LEDs are as reliable as the Patriot landscape lights, Christmas Tree and other lights in the house, I won't have to think about this for more than 5 years.

 

Costco also had strands that could be set to be color, blink, white etc on the strand, these sylvanias looked much whiter (without being blue/purple)

 

I prefer the "net" style for bushes, but sick of triag-ing them every year, or wonder if they will be DOA out of the storage box.

 

Paul

[apostolakisl]

I have heard you talk about the resistors being the issue with rust.  But the shunts are inside the bulb.  Now I don't know how the bulbs are made, but I assume they are made via the standard hermitcally sealed gas bulb with some inert gas inside.  So condensation doesn't seem likely.

 

In my case these are all indoor climate controlled year round.  The two wire leads coming off the bulbs also show no sign of issue.  Also, my replacement bulbs are stored in the same plastic storage box as the previously used strands that die in storage.  So I don't know why only the strands that were used would be victim of corrosion and not the never-used strands that spent the whole off-season sitting 1 inch away.

 

I keep coming back to the same thought.  Which is that upon plugging in for the first time each holiday season, there is a power surge that fries multiple fillaments all at once preventing the shunts from "breaking through" its insulator. I am going to assume it has something to do with fillaments that have "boiled off" a descent amount of their substance through normal use and some kind of aging process makes them fragile to the opening in-rush of current upon first ligthing.  But I question this because I would expect at least a quick flash.  And I don't get that.  I get notta.

[MWareman]

I had an odd one.

 

One of our garlands (4 sets of 40 lights pre-lit) only lit 2 out of the 4 strands when unboxed this year. Non-LED and only indoor use. About 3 years old...

 

I mechanically checked bulbs, nothing obvious. I went to the back room to get my “magic clicker thing” (as my wife calls it) and when I got back I found my cat rolling around inside the garland and all the lights lit.

 

I think I’ll have my cat check lights next year...

 

(By “magic clicker thing”, I mean one of these... https://www.amazon.com/Keeper-01201-Complete-Fixing-Miniature/dp/B000R8KBOK)

[apostolakisl]

I had an odd one.

 

One of our garlands (4 sets of 40 lights pre-lit) only lit 2 out of the 4 strands when unboxed this year. Non-LED and only indoor use. About 3 years old...

 

I mechanically checked bulbs, nothing obvious. I went to the back room to get my “magic clicker thing” (as my wife calls it) and when I got back I found my cat rolling around inside the garland and all the lights lit.

 

I think I’ll have my cat check lights next year...

 

(By “magic clicker thing”, I mean one of these... https://www.amazon.com/Keeper-01201-Complete-Fixing-Miniature/dp/B000R8KBOK)

Yeah, those things "pop" the shunt open when the bulb burns out and the shunt didn't open.  Wouldn't work in my case.  My issues with these strands is that literally 90% or more of the bulbs will have burned out with none (or mostly none) shunted.  It is just so odd.  One strand will be fine and then the next strand will have essentially every bulb burned out.  I just can't believe it has anything to do with corrosion when identical strands that spend their entire life (both in use and in storage) right next to each other behave so differently.  It has to have something to do with some sort of electric surge event that kills the strand.

[stusviews]

It's good that your CATastrophe was avoided, but I guess that's the result of having a psycatic pet

[oberkc]

(By “magic clicker thing”, I mean one of these... https://www.amazon.com/Keeper-01201-Complete-Fixing-Miniature/dp/B000R8KBOK)

 

I had one of those a while back but got rid of it when the last of my incandescents was gone.  

 

This year, I started to see failure of some LED strands and noticed the new magic clicker things had a voltage detector built in.  (I don't remember that in my old one.)  Being uncertain if my standard non-contact voltage detector would work for this application, I decided to get another one to see if I could trace the failure in my LED strand.  After a very slight learning curve, success!

 

I had earlier pulled each of the bad bulbs and reseated without success.  Now using the voltage detector to find at which socket the voltage ends, I was able to reseat that bulb again with success.  Well worth it, in my mind, for that capability alone.

[larryllix]

From the ad....

 

• " The light keeper pro is not intended with led, rope or light set/sets with control boxes."

 

Nice gadget , especially for those that got suckered into pre-lit trees with 100s of incandescent  bulbs in one series string.

[apostolakisl]

From the ad....

 

• " The light keeper pro is not intended with led, rope or light set/sets with control boxes."

 

Nice gadget , especially for those that got suckered into pre-lit trees with 100s of incandescent  bulbs in one series string.

The "pop" won't work with led's because leds don't have the shunt.  My understanding is that the "pop" hits it with a blast of static electricity burning through the shunt insulator and closing the circuit so that the working lights can light.

 

However, other features of the device may work.  If indeed it has a voltage detector, I don't see why that wouldn't work on leds.

[larryllix]

The "pop" won't work with led's because leds don't have the shunt.  My understanding is that the "pop" hits it with a blast of static electricity burning through the shunt insulator and closing the circuit so that the working lights can light.

 

However, other features of the device may work.  If indeed it has a voltage detector, I don't see why that wouldn't work on leds.

Yeah. Looking back we have been running two different lines of talk here with incandescents and LEDs. LOL

I think I (we?) hijacked your thread somewhat without realising it.

[stusviews]

The "pop" won't work with led's because leds don't have the shunt.  My understanding is that the "pop" hits it with a blast of static electricity burning through the shunt insulator and closing the circuit so that the working lights can light.

 

However, other features of the device may work.  If indeed it has a voltage detector, I don't see why that wouldn't work on leds.

 

Nope, it's actually a higher voltage due to the discontinuity of the filament. Each bulb in a series circuit has a voltage drop. The amount depends on the number of bulbs, 10 bulbs and the voltage drop for each bulb is one-tenth of the line voltage, a dozen bulbs and each drop is one-twelfth of the line voltage. Many street lights operate that way (with much higher supply voltage). If a bulb burns out, the others remain lit.

 

BTW, I did work on street lighting which also included traffic lights. A night job for obvious reasons

[apostolakisl]

Nope, it's actually a higher voltage due to the discontinuity of the filament. Each bulb in a series circuit has a voltage drop. The amount depends on the number of bulbs, 10 bulbs and the voltage drop for each bulb is one-tenth of the line voltage, a dozen bulbs and each drop is one-twelfth of the line voltage. Many street lights operate that way (with much higher supply voltage). If a bulb burns out, the others remain lit.

 

BTW, I did work on street lighting which also included traffic lights. A night job for obvious reasons

 

Well, what you say is true for many light sets, but I don't know where the "Nope" fits into any of that.  I never said anything about the voltages supplied to the remaining bulbs after a shunt kicks in.

 

Incidentally, some shunt circuits contain a resistor to emulate the bulb.  So the voltage to the remaining bulbs is still at spec.

[stusviews]

Nope was regarding static electric.

[larryllix]

Nope, it's actually a higher voltage due to the discontinuity of the filament. Each bulb in a series circuit has a voltage drop. The amount depends on the number of bulbs, 10 bulbs and the voltage drop for each bulb is one-tenth of the line voltage, a dozen bulbs and each drop is one-twelfth of the line voltage. Many street lights operate that way (with much higher supply voltage). If a bulb burns out, the others remain lit.

 

BTW, I did work on street lighting which also included traffic lights. A night job for obvious reasons

Never heard of that system. All ours work on 120vac off pole top transformers feeding other loads.  HID lighting would not function well in series.