isy99user Posted October 23, 2020 Posted October 23, 2020 TLDR: I am designing a new Insteon system which will have an ISY on Day 1. What design principles should I follow for linking and programming so I have a simple maintainable Insteon setup and ISY configuration/programming? (and who has written the "handbook" on this topic?) As a long time ISY/X10 user I am now (finally ?) starting to plan an upgrade of my system to Insteon. I've read tons and been lurking on Insteon related forums... and I think I get the whole linking idea in principle, although I've yet to read a clear explanation for X10ers 'converting' -- any links appreciated - diagrams with a little text would be ideal! But what I've not been able to find is advice about how to design an Insteon system where from day 1 you have a controller like an ISY. For example I have the impression that when building a new Insteon system with ISY from day 1, except in special cases, you would only link devices to the ISY, and then use programming to trigger commands to other Insteon devices. i.e. if you have an Insteon wall switch and receptacle, and you wanted to control the receptacle from the switch, without a controller, you'd link them together. But with a controller each device would only be linked to the controller and when the switch is pressed an ISY program would be triggered to send a command to the receptacle. Is my understanding correct? Also, I have a funny feeling, from reading between the lines, that there are a number of other Insteon system design with controller "design principles", or negatively, "gotchas". Are these documented anywhere? Perhaps I've just not looked in the right places ?) (As an example, when I went to tag this post there are no tags for "design" or "planning" - I can't believe that mean no one is designing or planing their Insteon system with ISY - but it appears its not a common topic to discuss or search for needing a tag ? I look forward to being "put straight" by all the Insteon experts here!
larryllix Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 I wouldn't know where to start as I change my mind and ideas on a regular basis. Leave lots of room for variable grouping by creating spare variables in each grouping of functions. I organise my devices by rooms and programs by function, using folders for each style. 1
simplextech Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 2 hours ago, isy99user said: But what I've not been able to find is advice about how to design an Insteon system where from day 1 you have a controller like an ISY. Day 1: Starting with an ISY for Insteon environments is the best decision and most important. All forthcoming decisions can be changed Day 2 - ???? 2 hours ago, isy99user said: ISY from day 1, except in special cases, you would only link devices to the ISY, and then use programming to trigger commands to other Insteon devices. Not true. You will use linking a lot with Insteon and the ISY. The difference is you will create and manage the links through the ISY and not create the links in a device to device direct manner. Insteon is designed in a way that no controller is necessary and you can create links from device to device pretty easy. This can achieve a lot of functionality but is limited in having to remember what is linked to what and for what function. The ISY is a central manager for links to devices and between the devices. The ISY connects to the PLM which is then how the ISY communicates with all of the devices. When you add the PLM a link is created between the ISY and PLM. When you add a device through the ISY the correct device links are added to the PLM and the ISY keeps track of these. See there's still inks and lots of them. You can create links between devices with the ISY and these are called 'Scenes'. A 'scene' is what called a 'group' in the Insteon documentation. It allows you to link devices together to do something. Scenes are very powerful and you can do almost all of your system automation through scenes. Programs enter the scene.. (pun intended) ... when you want to do something that will combine elements of multiple scenes or of devices or nodes that don't support scenes. Or if you want to run a program from some external data such as the weather or a temperature probe or something. Scenes and programs together are very powerful and provides enormous capabilities.
Goose66 Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, isy99user said: For example I have the impression that when building a new Insteon system with ISY from day 1, except in special cases, you would only link devices to the ISY, and then use programming to trigger commands to other Insteon devices... Is my understanding correct? If you are dead set on using Insteon despite its uncertain future, then the answer to this question is ABSOLUTELY NOT. To do so would completely negate one big positive of using ISY and Insteon. The ISY is, at its heart, a native Insteon controller. Sure, there is Zwave and nodeservers, but Insteon is what it has been all about from the get go. If you aren't leveraging the native Insteon features of the ISY, then you may as well be using any number of home controller devices, like Smarthings and Home Assistant, that have naive and low-capability Insteon interfaces. IMO, one of the best features in the ISY, made even stronger since 5.X firmware (more on that later), is recognition and integration of Insteon scenes. Programs are great when you have complex compound conditions and schedules, waits, repeats, and branches and all, but if you want one Insteon device to respond to another Insteon device instantaneously, then Insteon has a whole communication protocol built around that that is, in my experience, far more reliable than the ISY communicating through the PLM. The great thing about the ISY, though, is you create the scene right there in the ISY (similar to how you would create a program), and the scene utilizes all of the great, instantaneous Insteon scene protocols, while having configuration and status completely integrated in the ISY Admin Console. And now with the 5.X firmware, it's not even limited to Insteon. If the nodes in a nodeserver support the standard DON, DOF, BRT, DIM, DFON, DFOF commands (either sending or receiving or both), then you can drop a nodeserver node into a scene (as responder or controller) with Insteon devices and get all the instantaneous, integrated goodness of Insteon scenes along with interoperability with non Insteon devices through nodeservers. I believe it even works the same way with ZWave devices, although I can't confirm that. The ISY handles all of the plumbing - no programming required! So use programs when complex conditions and schedules and compound actions and else statements are necessary, but don't forego the power of Insteon (and integrated) scenes for simple linking of devices. EDIT: In other words, exactly what @simplextech said. ? Edited October 24, 2020 by Goose66
Brian H Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 (edited) I too would recommend all your Insteon linking and scene setup be done through the ISY994i interface with its 2413S PLM. If you want some information on how Insteon works. The Insteon White paper is still available. http://www.insteon.it/documentation/insteon_details.pdf Developers Guide. http://cache.insteon.com/developer/developer-guide-022009-en.pdf PLM. http://cache.insteon.com/pdf/INSTEON_Modem_Developer's_Guide_20071012a.pdf Some of the information in the files maybe dated. Like X10 support. Many of the latest revision modules removed X10 support. The X10 two wire dimmers stole power through the load. Except for the Insteon two wire dimmer for incandescent bulbs only. The wall switches need a Neutral power connection. So you may want to see if you have a Neutral in the locations where you want an Insteon Switch. Edited October 24, 2020 by Brian H Add information
oberkc Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 11 hours ago, isy99user said: Is my understanding correct? I agree with the others...this is NOT the best approach. Linking multiple insteon devices (aka scenes) is a powerful feature. Want to control and outlet with a switch? Use a scene. Want to have a bunch of devices come on at night? Put all the devices in a scene and use a program to turn on the scene. In other words, exactly like simplex tech and goose66 said. 11 hours ago, isy99user said: Are these documented anywhere? The documents of which I am aware are the wiki, the user manual, and the cookbook. The "gotchas" that come to mind are related to program triggers, the difference between "status" and "control", and program interruptions when "wait" and "repeat" statement are present. Also a topic of much discussion...motion sensors: programs or scenes? General things to consider: - naming convention for devices - organizing devices by room or function (folders) - folders for programs that are seasonal or otherwise limited to certain times Take the time to develop an understanding of scenes, ON levels, controllers, responders. Take the time to play around with programs and understand what triggers a program to run and when a program condition is true or false (logic conditions, AND, OR, IS NOT, IS...). Start small. Take the time to decide WHAT you want to do before you start doing it. I have not seen anything written that allows one to skip the steps of practice and experimentation.
Brian H Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 As pointed out. The WIKI has all kinds of information in it. https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
lilyoyo1 Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 16 hours ago, isy99user said: (As an example, when I went to tag this post there are no tags for "design" or "planning" - I can't believe that mean no one is designing or planing their Insteon system with ISY - but it appears its not a common topic to discuss or search for needing a tag ? I look forward to being "put straight" by all the Insteon experts here! There is no set design or plan as everyone has their own method of doing things. There really is not right or wrong way to do something. Your light switches are in set places so there really isn't any designing to it. What you need is planning and only you can do that. People on here can give you ideas but nothing beats pepper planning on your end. What you can do is sit down and plan your system. Put pen to paper (so to speak) and look at the flow of your home and your lifestyle. In my house, each room has a kpl (along with the other switches) that we use for our mood scenes. This sets the room for what we want outside of the default programming. Everything else happens automatically. For example, we use our lamps mostly in the living room. By default, as it starts to get dark, those will turn on at a low level and gradually brighten as it gets dark. The letter it gets the lights will dim down the closet it gets to bedtime. We can hit a button on the kpl, if we want to relax, watch a movie, we're entertaining, simply want extra lights, etc. Same with the kitchen. When no one is in there, accent lights will come on when it gets dark. Walking in will turn on the can lights. Hitting the meal prep button will turn on the lights we want for cooking, dinner button will set the area up to eat etc. By planning, you can get the devices you want correct from the start vs buying and installing, then wishing you had done differently later. The same with installation. Here's your chance to move switches around so the light you use most is first It's easy to want to jump in and start programming. Plan what you want from by room. Start with the least used room as your practice room. Let this be where you learn to program and put ideas to work. As you become proficient, you can branch out to other rooms and start programming then add well. The good thing is that devices will still work without programming until you get to them. Just remember, it's not a race to finish this. Rome wasn't built in a day nor will your system be done in that time. I'm always changing our adding stuff and so will you. The most important piece is to start with a strong foundation 1
larryllix Posted October 24, 2020 Posted October 24, 2020 Typically no design of a Home Automation system can be done by an inexperienced person. This typically would start with a handful of Insteon devices and grow as your ideas and budget develop. When you first start out, you likely didn't realise you could cause alight to blink when the gate was open or cycle you furnace fan, only when you are home to save energy costs. ISY is not the limitation. Your mind is.
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