Infallible Timer for Patio Heaters

[CKallberg]

Hey guys,

I have a couple Infratech 6000W electric patio heaters that run off their 240V "Universal Control Panel". This control panel came with a 120V wall timer switch and a couple of 120V slide dimmers to set the on level of the heaters. I can replace them with any 120V dimmer. I'm going to use a pair of Insteon dimmer switches to make it "Smart".

 

Here's my issue/question. The timer is used because the heaters can't be on for more than 4 hours. They need a 15 minute cool down and can be turned back on. So I need a SUPER RELIABLE timer. Here are my thoughts on possibilities: 

 

- Find a timer that can initiate a timer sequence when it gets powered up (by an Insteon On/Off device). 

- Find a Z Wave timer that can handle this operation and upgrade my Polisy Pro with Z Matter

- Use ISY to set up and trigger timer(s) - I feel like this could be an issue because schedules/timers/programs sometimes don't work due to user error, setup error, connectivity problems etc. and this needs to be an infallible solution. 

 

Sorry if this post is in the wrong area, I'm a noob here and can't post elsewhere. 

Thanks for reading and let me know your thoughts.

[MrBill]

The three gang control is certainly interesting.    The inards of  your control box contain contractors (relays) that switch the timed load.  I'm not sure what the load requirement for the dimmers is, or even what they are dimming.  You could definitely replace the right hand timer switch with an Insteon On/Off switch and control it.  I'd write the program so that it Turns the switch off, waits 15 seconds and does a query to make sure the switch is really off.   Need more info tho to figure out how the dimmers are working in this circuit.

[CKallberg]

Just now, MrBill said:

 I'm not sure what the load requirement for the dimmers is, or even what they are dimming. . . .  Need more info tho to figure out how the dimmers are working in this circuit.

Dimmers just provide a variable voltage to tell the control panel what on level to set the heaters to. Timer is a failsafe to make sure they don't stay on too long for safety and so they don't consume too much power. The total load for the timer and dimmers is under an amp. Here's the schematics I have on them.

 

 

DWG#31058.pdf IN_UNIVERSAL-PANEL-TIMER-AND-DIMMER-WIRING-EXAMPLE_2022.pdf

[MrBill]

Ahh I see.  This is very interesting.   I'm surprised tho that they didn't engineer the control panel with some type of time delay relay to enforce the off cycle every 4 hours.  It seems like with the current wall timer it would be possible to just go turn it back on immediately. 

Can you identify the specs or make/model of the dimmers?   not all dimmers are created alike. 

If I were designing the automation for this for my own house, I'd look at adding a time delay relay to the circuit to prevent the possibility of automation failure for the 4 hour cool-down cycle.  

[CKallberg]

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

Ahh I see.  This is very interesting.   I'm surprised tho that they didn't engineer the control panel with some type of time delay relay to enforce the off cycle every 4 hours.  It seems like with the current wall timer it would be possible to just go turn it back on immediately. 

I know right? All this thought, planning and effort electrical involved in the (Super expensive) panel and yes, you can turn in back on right away. 

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

Can you identify the specs or make/model of the dimmers?   not all dimmers are created alike. 

If I were designing the automation for this for my own house, I'd look at adding a time delay relay to the circuit to prevent the possibility of automation failure for the 4 hour cool-down cycle.  

Dimmers are Leviton 6672-1LW
 https://www.leviton.com/en/products/6672-1lw

Timer is Intermatic EI215W

https://www.intermatic.com/Product/EI215W

I don't think the existing dimmers or timer are much to consider here as they are replaceable with "Almost any 120V dimmer"

 

Got a delay relay recommendation? Or a program example with more detail? I'm new to ISY and Polisy, but not Insteon or electrical work. 

[MrBill]

2 minutes ago, CKallberg said:

Dimmers are Leviton 6672-1LW
 https://www.leviton.com/en/products/6672-1lw

I believe you should be able to swap in standard Insteon 2477d dimmers for those.  Hopefully the modules that those control don't put out interface back feeding on the line.   Perhaps I'll tag @Brian H to see if he agrees on the dimmers (see the schematics 2 posts upward).

5 minutes ago, CKallberg said:

Got a delay relay recommendation? Or a program example with more detail? I'm new to ISY and Polisy, but not Insteon or electrical work. 

I don't.  But i would definitely take the step to put a time delay relay to enforce the 15 minute off cycles.  The problem with Insteon or another other remote switching/home automation solution is that it not infallible.  There's always a chance the signal doesn't get through.   I don't have enough hours right now to study the schematic.... there maybe a way to add a solid state timer circuit relatively easy--to the existing control circuit already powering contactors.   I used an ITE programmable relay for something like this 25-30 years ago, it was two pole and had the ability (set via dip switches) to program a cool down cycle... it was actually for some HID lighting that needed to be powered off 15 minutes out of each 24 hours.

There's a lot of other people around here that may be able to suggest a more concrete good plan, I'm just short on time cycles for about the next 7 days.

[CKallberg]

6 hours ago, MrBill said:

I believe you should be able to swap in standard Insteon 2477d dimmers for those.  Hopefully the modules that those control don't put out interface back feeding on the line.   Perhaps I'll tag @Brian H to see if he agrees on the dimmers (see the schematics 2 posts upward).

I'm hoping that the 2474D dimmers that I already have on hand will be a good fit. I know they need a trickle of power through the load to power the internal electronics and saw that the Infratech panel has a couple different types of relays can even a resistor bridging the load to a neutral. I've emailed their tech support to clarify if I could possibly damage the panel by trying my dimmers and they are looking into it. I also like that the 2474Ds are RF only and I won't need to worry (as much) about noise on the line when the heaters are running. So far I have no new issues since the heaters were installed. Couple of old communication/noise issues but I'll save them for another thread.

Thanks!