Serious ISY issues with New PLM

[smithlevenson]

Hey all,

I started having massive communication issues with my ISY system. Very few Programs are responding correctly and some seem to be running at randomly. A bunch of devices showing "Cannot Communicate". I tried replacing the PLM with no change. I tried to restore to v5.0.16A from v5.0.16C (the current firmware). I cannot get any improvement. I am starting to wonder if something is wrong with my ISY 994i/IR Pro w Zwave.

If anyone has any good ideas to try before I spend ~$400 please let me know. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by smithlevenson

[kzboray]

This sounds like a communications issue due to line noise. I am making an assumption that this is a relatively new problem and not something you  have had to contend with in the past.

If that is true, then I would try to recall what devices you have recently added to the home. It could be something as innocuous as an AC charger.

There are numerous posts on the forum about how to track down line noise, but here are the basics.

INSTEON: Troubleshooting Communications Errors

Communication Problems with INSTEON Devices

The INSTEON protocol is a much more robust communication protocol than the older X10 protocol that it replaces. However, INSTEON users will sometimes find that while their INSTEON devices seem to communicate reliably between themselves, the ISY will report "Communication Errors" on their power line network. There are multiple reasons for this:

 

• The ISY communicates to the INSTEON devices on a power line network via the SmartHome PLM (PowerLinc Modem). The PLM can be less tolerant of weak INSTEON signals and power line "noise" (interference) than the actual INSTEON switch devices themselves.
• The PLM and ISY require reliable "acknowledgements" of their "requests" to the INSTEON devices. When these are not properly received for any reason, the ISY will display an error. Sometimes this will prevent the completion of an ISY function.

Due to these characteristics, a power line network must be as free as possible from substantial interference or signal loss, in order for the ISY to provide error-free INSTEON device monitoring and control.

The following tips may be helpful if communication problems are encountered:

• Move the PLM to a different outlet and one that's not shared with other transformers and power supplies
• Do not plug a PLM into a power strip that has any type of surge-suppression incorporated, as this can weaken the INSTEON signals. Likewise, certain models of GFCI outlets have also been reported to degrade INSTEON signals (this, however, is not true for all GFCIs). To provide for surge protection for the PLM, ISY, and all of your INSTEON devices, consider using a "whole house" surge suppressor. This can often be supplied and installed by your electric power utility for a minimal charge.
• If you have old SignaLincs and Access Points, remove them and instead use dual band devices

The next points are probably some of the most important:

• Use power line filtering devices (such as the SmartHome Filterlinc) on all potential signal “sinks” and noise generating devices in your home. Devices such as computer power supplies, televisions, home theater systems, etc, can all act as “signal sinks” that degrade the INSTEON signals on your power line network. Conversely, devices such as low voltage halogen lighting, CFLs (compact fluorescent light bulbs), etc, can generate interference patterns on your power line network that can cause the PLM or even other INSTEON devices to miss INSTEON control signals, which get lost in the background noise on the power line. Even if you have previously installed some power line filters on your system, you may find that more may be required if problems still persist. Also, remember that the bottom outlet on the FilterLinc is the “filtered” outlet.
• For hard-wired halogen or fluorescent lighting, in-line noise suppressors can be used (such as the Levition Noise Block model 6287).
• Some CFLs are prone to producing much higher levels of power line noise than others. CFLs that are producing excessive line noise can be replaced with those that produce less interference.

[Techman]

@smithlevenson

Are your firmware and UI the same version.

Which zwave board do you have, the 300 or 500 series?

[smithlevenson]

1 hour ago, kzboray said:

This sounds like a communications issue due to line noise. I am making an assumption that this is a relatively new problem and not something you  have had to contend with in the past.

If that is true, then I would try to recall what devices you have recently added to the home. It could be something as innocuous as an AC charger.

There are numerous posts on the forum about how to track down line noise, but here are the basics.

Interesting. I really can't think of any new things added, but I can definitely try a new circuit. I will try new Cat5 on the PLM too just in case (it will need a longer cord anyway). Some of the Z-Wave devices are acting up simultaneously (but once they go offline I feel it's almost best to re-enroll them), so it may point away from powerline, but it's worth a try for sure.

[smithlevenson]

34 minutes ago, Techman said:

@smithlevenson

Are your firmware and UI the same version.

Which zwave board do you have, the 300 or 500 series?

Not sure on Z-Wave other than its version 4.55 and the product is listed a 21100. I bought it probably 10 years ago so...

 

The firmware says 5.0.16C while the UI says 5.0.16. Do they need to be identical?

[MrBill]

I agree with @kzboray that it's likely noise.  One question to ask yourself is have you gotten anything new lately?  TV, kitchen appliance, any  appliance for that matter... etc

Don't rule out bad MicroSD card.  After you install a new MicroSD (up to 32gb, look for A1 rating) the first thing you need to do is reinstall the firmware (the boot loader copy that allows you to log in is not complete) I'd re-install 5.0.16C assuming since you have a 300 series z-wave board... 5.0.16C is far more stable than .16A was.....  After loading firmware then restore your backup.

1 minute ago, smithlevenson said:

Not sure on Z-Wave other than its version 4.55

that's a 300 series board.

[smithlevenson]

4 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I agree with @kzboray that it's likely noise.  One question to ask yourself is have you gotten anything new lately?  TV, kitchen appliance, any  appliance for that matter... et

Going to try this first since it's easiest to rule out (at least at the current location). The only new "appliance" is a sump pump, but it is off (with a manual switch) 99.999% of the time.  

[MrBill]

Just now, smithlevenson said:

Going to try this first since it's easiest to rule out (at least at the current location). The only new "appliance" is a sump pump, but it is off (with a manual switch) 99.999% of the time.  

try unplugging it or turning the breaker off if you can.  Why?  Oddly I had a deep fryer in the kitchen in the past that if plugged in a turned off, or turned on and not heating created insteon noise.  if it was actually turned on and currently heating insteon worked fine. moral: you can't assume "not running" means not creating noise or sucking signal (which is a related topic).

[smithlevenson]

@kzboray @MrBill The Restore Modem I did earlier this morning is now finally chirping all my devices and the Programs are responding normally after moving over one circuit. I will need to confirm that everything is normal, but early indications are good that it was noise on the line. 

I honestly didn't even realize there was a microSD card in the ISY because it was behind a rubber cover. I thought it was just an expansion slot. 

[smithlevenson]

As an aside, The circuit it was on is the Media Cabinet with Server, Modem, Switch, Router, TV, UPS, Cable Box, etc. I always thought their might be a problem there with noise, but it's been fine for almost 10 years. 

Does the proximity to the main network switch even matter? I have an electrical circuit with nearby hardwired NAP that I think might be a good spot with no other devices on it. It's in an attic, but the media cabinet is probably hotter anyway. 

[MrBill]

I have all the same items in the circuit as you.  I do have an Insteon noise filter plugged in between the wall and the UPS.... the PLM however piggybacks the noise filter (plugging into the front passthru plug).

When I need to find a new noise source I tend to turn off half the breakers in the panel see if it works, turn those back on then do the other half... then keep halving the halves until i get it down to on circuit, then hunt the circuit.

[smithlevenson]

15 hours ago, MrBill said:

I have all the same items in the circuit as you.  I do have an Insteon noise filter plugged in between the wall and the UPS.... the PLM however piggybacks the noise filter (plugging into the front passthru plug).

Interesting. I found a new spot that works with the Z-Wave devices. It has a UPS on the circuit but not right next to the PLM. Might get the noise filter just in case. Amazing that it's my first power line issue after 10 years, but it basically breaks the system. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by smithlevenson

[Andy P]

I had a similar problem a couple years ago and had no idea that the UPS I plugged in to a circuit near the PLM was causing it, but after going around unplugging almost everything in the house, it turned out to be the cause. It was great that plugging the UPS into a noise filter fixed the problem immediately.

I just recently started having issues in my barn with the mini-remote not turning on some switches and then I realized I had a UPS there with no filter. After adding the filter, the remote works every time.

Definitely recommend adding the filter for reliability.