Help with Nepoleon Fireplace on/off status

[kzboray]

I have a fireplace already installed that has a ceiling exhaust port that I'd like to add something like this to for basic on / of monitoring of the fireplace. I want to turn on a couple of ceiling fans when it's in use. Or if someone has knowledge of Napoleon fireplace controllers and can direct me to what pins on the controller I might tap off of when it is on, that would work too.

Napoleon has bar none the worst customer support I've ever experienced. When I called to ask about this I was on hold over two days for over four hours before someone answered. After talking a couple of field tech's this is the norm. Once i final got someone on the phone they lied about the controller having outputs that trigger when the fireplace is turned on saying they didn't support home automation.

I emphasized I didn't want home automation but simply to know what pins on the controller to use to trigger a relay. Obviously it has to activate the gas solenoid so somewhere on the controller is some kind of a relay that I could tap off of. But they refused to tell me and lied about it even existing.

Sorry for the rant, but I thought I'd share and if anyone has recommendations for either a wifi type thermometer that has a supported NS available that I can stick in the vent or has experience with the Napoleon controllers and can point me to what pins to use, I would appreciate it.

[larryllix]

9 hours ago, kzboray said:

I have a fireplace already installed that has a ceiling exhaust port that I'd like to add something like this to for basic on / of monitoring of the fireplace. I want to turn on a couple of ceiling fans when it's in use. Or if someone has knowledge of Napoleon fireplace controllers and can direct me to what pins on the controller I might tap off of when it is on, that would work too.

Napoleon has bar none the worst customer support I've ever experienced. When I called to ask about this I was on hold over two days for over four hours before someone answered. After talking a couple of field tech's this is the norm. Once i final got someone on the phone they lied about the controller having outputs that trigger when the fireplace is turned on saying they didn't support home automation.

I emphasized I didn't want home automation but simply to know what pins on the controller to use to trigger a relay. Obviously it has to activate the gas solenoid so somewhere on the controller is some kind of a relay that I could tap off of. But they refused to tell me and lied about it even existing.

Sorry for the rant, but I thought I'd share and if anyone has recommendations for either a wifi type thermometer that has a supported NS available that I can stick in the vent or has experience with the Napoleon controllers and can point me to what pins to use, I would appreciate it.

Many professions are like that. The medical field, especially with the face to face front end people can be bad. They just can't admit they don't know something so they fabricate things or just ignore your question, changing the subject. Some get offended and take it as an attack on their professionalism.

With Napoleon I get the impression they are tin whackers and maybe gas fitters and a "contact"? Well we aren't rocket scientists knowing all those high tech gadget things.

Edited October 27, 2023 by larryllix

[gviliunas]

Kaz:

Maybe you can use temp-dependent on/off thermal switches with a magnetic base like this to trigger your automation:

 https://www.amazon.com/BBQ-Element-Magnetic-Thermostat-Fireplace-Temperature/dp/B07WC8M3MM/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=2X6ZC9VLURVOQ&keywords=fireplace+thermal+switch&qid=1698372489&sprefix=fireplace+thermal+switch%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

[dbwarner5]

@kzboray Why not just control it with insteon? I have a Napoleon gas fire place and did the following:

-wired in parallel to the existing starter relay an insteon I/O so that either the existing remote from Napoleon or insteon can turn on the fireplace. Downside is that since either can turn it on, you need to know which one to turn it off. 

-For safety, I have one leg of the insteon wiring goes through a wall switch such that when that is turned off, there is no way insteon can turn on the fireplace. This avoids any strange on event for example in the summer time, or when we are away. 

-Once it's in the ISY, Alexa is now the way we turn it on and off. Programs monitor it for auto off after certain time periods. Also auto on in the morning depending on season, inside temp, outside temp and morning alarm settings. So back to point one, we never use the remote any more. 

 

Overall it works fantastic. 

[IndyMike]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:10 AM, kzboray said:

I have a fireplace already installed that has a ceiling exhaust port that I'd like to add something like this to for basic on / of monitoring of the fireplace. I want to turn on a couple of ceiling fans when it's in use. Or if someone has knowledge of Napoleon fireplace controllers and can direct me to what pins on the controller I might tap off of when it is on, that would work too.

Napoleon has bar none the worst customer support I've ever experienced. When I called to ask about this I was on hold over two days for over four hours before someone answered. After talking a couple of field tech's this is the norm. Once i final got someone on the phone they lied about the controller having outputs that trigger when the fireplace is turned on saying they didn't support home automation.

I emphasized I didn't want home automation but simply to know what pins on the controller to use to trigger a relay. Obviously it has to activate the gas solenoid so somewhere on the controller is some kind of a relay that I could tap off of. But they refused to tell me and lied about it even existing.

Sorry for the rant, but I thought I'd share and if anyone has recommendations for either a wifi type thermometer that has a supported NS available that I can stick in the vent or has experience with the Napoleon controllers and can point me to what pins to use, I would appreciate it.

It sounds like you have a standing pilot gas valve.  When the pilot light is on it heats a theromopile to provide electric power to the gas valve.  It is essentially a stand alone setup that requires no external power (nice for power outages).  The normal method to control these is to "Switch" the theromopile input to the gas valve (just an on/off switch).  For automation purposes you could "sense" the switch voltage to determine if power is being applied to the gas valve.

Could you provide the Napolean Model # and possibly a photo of the gas valve? 

[kzboray]

@dbwarner5 That would be a great solution, but unfortunately there are multiple start relays on the controller for this stove. When I contacted Napoleon as I indicated they first lied to me, and finally just stated they would not give me the information on what relays did what? I managed to figure out the three involved with turning on the gas line, but without knowing the supply amperage and the draw from the solenoids, I didn't want to add any additional current draw to the circuit. I'm positive there is a contact point on the controller that either presents a voltage or goes high when the stove is on, but without a schematic or input from Napoleon I choose a different route.

I ended up buying a ESP32 which I setup as a bluetooth bridge, it's located in a cabinet about 4' from the stove controller. My hope is to use Home Assistant to signal the fans once the ESP32 detects that the stove is on. The only downside to this is that the remote that came with the stove can't be used or it screws up the ESP32 bridge. Phone app is fine. I bought the ESP32 linked below. I grabbed the one with an external bluetooth antenna. These are POE and have both bluetooth as well as ethernet built in.

Olimex ESP-32-POE-ISO-EA

Here's a link to the HA integration I found, but have yet to try.

eFire HA Integration

I haven't had time to put it all together as the install of the theater took precedence. But on paper it looks like a viable solution.

Edited January 2 by kzboray

[kzboray]

@IndyMike Thank you for following up on this. I've got the stove all put together and it's integrated into a titled wall that makes it difficult to get back into. If you read the post above, I choose a different route to getting the signal from the stove that it's on without having to mess with the Napoleon stove's controller at all. However I did run an 8 conductor line between the stoves controller and a cabinet near by. So if need be I can tie that line into an I/O linc or something similar in the future.

If my currently planned integration route fails. I'll have to pull the stove apart and I'll grab a few photos for you and maybe we can come up with a plan "B"

Thank you for your offer to help! It means a great deal.

[IndyMike]

52 minutes ago, kzboray said:

@IndyMike Thank you for following up on this. I've got the stove all put together and it's integrated into a titled wall that makes it difficult to get back into. If you read the post above, I choose a different route to getting the signal from the stove that it's on without having to mess with the Napoleon stove's controller at all. However I did run an 8 conductor line between the stoves controller and a cabinet near by. So if need be I can tie that line into an I/O linc or something similar in the future.

If my currently planned integration route fails. I'll have to pull the stove apart and I'll grab a few photos for you and maybe we can come up with a plan "B"

Thank you for your offer to help! It means a great deal.

Make that Plan C.  I was looking at the low end models for Napoleon.  They do indeed use standing pilot ignition and milivolt gas valves.

Unfortunately, your description of "multiple relays", bluetooth, and controllers does not sound at all like a "low end" standing pilot system. 

There are installation manuals available for the fireplaces, but that's not the same as specifications.