Multiple Motion sensors same lights.

[fwoitine]

I have In-LineLinc relays with sense (2475S2) wired like the 2nd diagram on the quick-Start Guide with Insteon Motion Sensor Floodlights model 2494MS. There are 4 of these, one at each corner of my house. Each one works as designed. My wife has asked that I program them so all lights come on when any one of the motion sensors are tripped. It would also be nice to be able to be able to change the time they stay on, then they all should shut off.

 

Sense the relays are in the electrical boxes and are difficult to remove and program, I would like to do it all with my ISY-99 controller. I've tried several programs and can sometimes get two to work ok, I can't seem to get all 4.

 

IF

Status 'light 1' is On

or Status 'light 2' is On

or Status 'light 3' is On

or Status 'light 4' is On

 

Then

Set 'light 1' ON

Set 'light 2' ON

Set 'light 3' ON

Set 'light 4' ON

Wait 1 minute

Set 'light 1' Off

Set 'light 2' Off

Set 'light 3' Off

Set 'light 4' Off

Else

- No Actions -

 

This seems to work when a trigger is received on any light, all the lights turn on. After the wait time, they all cycle off, but then they turn on again and seem to get caught in a loop or something turning on and off and on and off forever.

 

I've tried to read everything I can find on programming, but can't seem to figure what is happening, unless it starts running the program again before it gets all the lights off. Any ideas?

[Sub-Routine]

Hello fwoitine,

 

I do have a few ideas the first of which is to watch for Control rather than Status. This will only watch for the switch when motion as active. Using Status will cause the program to reevaluate whenever any light changes and that is causing your program to quit.

 

Since these are wired devices and not battery operated there is no need for you to activate them to change any settings. So no climbing a ladder, the ISY will send the commands and the devices should respond.

 

#1 Create a scene with all four devices as Responders.

#2 Change your program to watch for Control is switched On, then it will not quit whenever a Status changes.

#3 Control the Scene rather than the individual devices. This will cause all the lights to turn On or Off at once rather than sequentially.

 

Rand

[oberkc]

I am wondering if in-line links are among those devices that cannot be used as controllers in a scene. (I understand that these may not send a status message.) If so, I wonder if that limitation also applies to using them in program conditions.

[fitzpatri8]

There are multiple kinds of InLineLincs. Only the InLineLinc with Sense can be used as a controller.

[oberkc]

I am also wondering if you have created some type of loop as a result of your "else" condition peforming action that affects your "if" conditions. The following example program is a lot like yours.

 

if
status of light is on
then
turn light on
else
turn light off 

 

When the light status is changed to on, it will run the else condition, which turns the light on, which forces another evaluation, which turns the light on, which forces another evalation, which.....

 

Unfortunately, I am not directly familiar with the motion sensor light device. Are your "light X" devices refering to the motion sensor, the in-line-linc, or the fixture, itself? Did you add the 2494MS device to the ISY? Could you use your motion sensors as your program trigger, rather than the light?

[fwoitine]

Rand, Thanks for your suggestions. I couldn't wait to make the changes and now I'm waiting for dark so I can test the sensors and programs. I have the sensors all set for 1 minute, hoping I can use the isy to control how long I want and change it at will. While I'm waiting for dark, a couple of questions.

 

Is there an easy way to cut and paste a program to here?

 

Oberkc -- to answer your questions. The "light x" is a In-LincLinc Relay model 2475S2 which was sent with each light when I ordered it. The wiring uses the sense wire of the relay to sense a change caused by the motion detector then (this part I'm not 100% sure of) it appears to turn on the relay even if there is no other control on the circuit. So, from Rand's message there are two ways evidently to read the relay, either status or control which was not obvious to me from any of the documentation.

 

I don't believe the 2494 by it self has any insteon capability, probably why they included the relay in the package. Which answers your last question, I'm actually using the motion sensor to be sensed by the relay and thereby using the relay to turn on the light. The Motion sensor for all practical purposes is separated from the lights themselves.

 

Hope that makes sense, I'm a little new to all this, but got a big heart of desire to learn. I'm trying to read everything I can find but its a slow learning process.

 

Maybe we need a Insteon for dummy's book.

[fitzpatri8]

If you right-click on a program in the ISY's administrative console, one of the options is "Copy to Clipboard". Once you do that, you can paste it into a response here.

 

Rand's reply offers step-by-step instructions on how to make this work. If one of the steps doesn't make sense to you, speak up and someone can clarify.

[fwoitine]

Thanks for the response. I think I was able to get all Rand's suggestions in place, I'm just waiting for dark to see if it works. Before when I was testing on Status, I could test by just setting one light on. Now that I'm waiting for an actual Control, I have to wait till dark unless I want to climb a ladder and switch to test mode. It's 6:48 pm, so I'll take the lazy way out and wait till dark. Thanks again for the tip.

[fwoitine]

Well, it appears that our solution may be working. I only say 'may' because there are still a few unusual occurrences, but it does appear to be working as I would have expected for the most part. I may have to play with the sensitivity to see if one corner light lighting up the area where another motion sensor is pointing could confuse it.

 

When I tripped one sensor, it appeared that light came on and within a second the rest came on. At about 1 min or so, that light went out but the others stayed on perhaps because the motion sensor timed out before the program did and the sensor shut down because of the internal 1 min timer leaving the other 3 on till the 'wait time' then the other 3 went off.

 

The other anomaly was once I tripped another light and it turned on the others, but it continued to cut off and turn on again in some sort of loop while the other 3 stayed on. I finally had to send an off signal to that relay then the other 3 timed out and it seemed to work correctly again. Still open for suggestions for improvement.

 

This is the current program.

 

If

Control 'Border Lights Outside / Rear - Joe's Side' is switched On

Or Control 'Border Lights Outside / Rear - Dave's Side' is switched On

Or Control 'Border Lights Outside / Front - Joe's Side' is switched On

Or Control 'Border Lights Outside / Front - Dave's side' is switched On

 

Then

Set Scene 'Border Light Scene' On

Wait 1 minute and 30 seconds

Set Scene 'Border Light Scene' Off

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

Wonder, would it be a good idea to put a 'set scene Border LIght Scene' OFF in my Else statement, just to insure the relay is set off on all units?

[oberkc]

I am unsure of how you can control the amount of time the lights stay on, other than through the motion sensor settings (1min, 5min, 10min). I think the problem with one light going off after a minute is due to the fact that this is how you have them set.

 

If 5 or 10 minutes is what you want, I suggest:

 

-set the motion sensors to 5 or 10 minutes as you desire.

-remove all four devices from your scene

-add all four devices back, only as controllers (rather than just responders)

-eliminate the program altogether.

 

Setting it up this way will use scenes to turn all on if one or more is triggered. It will also turn them all off when one or more times out. It will also happen nearly instantaneously (no delay between first light and other three).

 

I am having difficulty envisioning how you can use the ISY to turn these off, since the motion sensor does not appear to have the ability to disable the off signal. I think this could require additional hardware.

[fwoitine]

OK, I'm starting to understand a little. It appears the light that originally senses the motion is plagued with the fact that when its motion sensor times out, it is going to shut that light off independently of what you really want it to do. So the question is, how do we make that something we can live with.

 

I'm thinking I need to set a flag when there is a trip. Monitor all the lights against that flag to insure they stay on till the flag is cleared. If one turns off, re-evaluate against the flag, and turn all of them on again. Then when my wait timer in my program expires set the flag to false and turn the lights off.

 

The only negative I see, is the actual light that sensed the motion is going to blink off then on after its motion sensor timer expires, then the evaluation against the flag will catch it and turn it back on. I'm not really sure what the code should look like to do this, but I'll give it a shot next weekend when I return home.

 

Also could you explain how your idea of putting them all in one scene and having no program would control them all together. Maybe scene's have more power than I'm aware of.

[LeeG]

It appears the light that originally senses the motion is plagued with the fact that when its motion sensor times out, it is going to shut that light off independently of what you really want it to do

 

The InlineLinc w/sense turns On when the sense line is pulled to 120V AC and turns Off when the sense line drops to 0 V. This can be overridden by sending it a Fast On command. Once the InlineLinc receives the Fast On it should ignore the sense line and stay On until you turn it Off with an explicit Off command. When you detect that a specific Inlinelinc has signaled it has turned On due to motion, follow up with a Fast On command back to that inlinelinc telling it to ignore the sense line. All the timing to turn that inlinelinc Off is now the responsibility of the Program.

[fwoitine]

Great Idea! Why didn't I think of that. I won't be home again till the weekend so I'll give it a try then. My wife doesn't like it when I play from a remote location, it spooks her. LOL

 

Couple of questions for my poor confused mind.

 

If a program is running and a on or off command is sent to a switch that is in the control group, does the program re-evaluate or start over? Did it stop where it was at the time, or is another thread started and the old one still running?

[fwoitine]

Also, what forces a re-evaluation - any switch changing in the house, or just one that is associated with that program.

[LeeG]

A Program is not terminated just because the If conditions have changed. A Program that runs because of a Status ON condition does not terminate just because the Status has changed to OFF. However, if/when the Program Waits the If conditions are reevaluated at the end of the Wait. For example, a Program that is conditioned on a specific device(s) Status will not run past the Wait should the condition(s) no longer be True when the Wait expires. That is why folks use the technique of having the Then clause in Program1 Run the Then clause of Program2. That way should the initial Status condition(s) change it does not prevent Program2 from continuing after Waits. The operational characteristic boggles the mind of this old programmer but when in Rome….

 

I preface with there are aspects of Programs I do not have a good understanding of yet. I do not think multiple copies of a Program will be initiated (per your question about a new thread). Once it starts the Program will not start from the beginning again until the currently running/waiting instance of the Program terminates.

 

I am sure there are users with more experience with Program operation who can expand or correct anything I have said.

[oberkc]

A Program is not terminated just because the If conditions have changed. A Program that runs because of a Status ON condition does not terminate just because the Status has changed to OFF.

 

This is not consistent with my understanding. I thought programs ceased "then" and "else" statements at the point where conditions are evaluated, at which point the program starts over, based upon the condition as evaluated. SLee is pretty good with this stuff. Perhaps I was wrong and it only happens in conjunction with 'wait' statements, as he says. I have read about much confusion about this topic.

 

Also, what forces a re-evaluation - any switch changing in the house, or just one that is associated with that program

.

 

In general, any change in status or reciept of contol related to the program conditions. If a change is to a device not part of the conditions, the program will not be affected.

 

Great Idea! Why didn't I think of that.

 

That DOES sound like a potential solution to your problem! I second your sentiments....great idea. Another thought that I had....does the ISY give you any options for this inlinelinc setup? If you select the device from the tree, are there anything like device options along the bottom that one could set up to ignore off commands? I know that my triggerlinc has such options.

[fwoitine]

No, its not a very modifiable device. no dimming, and no options that I can find.

[fitzpatri8]

The InlineLinc w/sense turns On when the sense line is pulled to 120V AC and turns Off when the sense line drops to 0 V. This can be overridden by sending it a Fast On command. Once the InlineLinc receives the Fast On it should ignore the sense line and stay On until you turn it Off with an explicit Off command. When you detect that a specific Inlinelinc has signaled it has turned On due to motion, follow up with a Fast On command back to that inlinelinc telling it to ignore the sense line. All the timing to turn that inlinelinc Off is now the responsibility of the Program.

[oberkc]

fitzpatri8,

 

I think he noticed LeeGs advice and even commented that it was a "great idea". I think he was just responding to some alternative suggestions and questions from me.

[fwoitine]

Problem resolved ! Description below.

 

Here is the program I ended up with, I will explain a little below.

 

If

(

Control 'Border Lights Outside / Rear - Joe's Side' is switched On

Or Control 'Border Lights Outside / Rear - Dave's Side' is switched On

Or Control 'Border Lights Outside / Front - Joe's Side' is switched On

Or Control 'Border Lights Outside / Front - Dave's side' is switched On

)

And (

From Sunset

To Sunrise (next day)

)

 

Then

Set Scene 'Border Light Scene' Fast On

Wait 1 minute and 15 seconds

Set Scene 'Border Light Scene' Off

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

First using the sense for control instead of status was essential, thanks for that advice.

 

Next using FastOn insures that all lights are locked in an On position until manually turned off by the program, this fixed numerous false on's and blinking issues - thanks for that advice also.

 

Next, during testing especially I quickly became tired of waiting past the 1 minute minimum on the motion sensor. For accurate testing I wanted it to be shorter, so I put one of the motion sensors in test mode (switch setting) and it worked great. I could now shorten my stay on time to anything I wish but I would loose the ability to sense day/night. This also brought up another issue. If the light was set to 1 minute on time (the minimum you can select with the switch), and you wanted set your program on time to shorter than that, you could possibly get into an issue where you are turning the lights off with your program, but your sense from the motion sensor was still on. (did that make sense?). I know somebody's going to say, who would want to turn it on shorter than 1 minute on motion sense, but I'm just trying to make the device as flexible and most controllable as possible. So..... My suggestion would be leave it in test mode and control it not coming on in daytime with your program (sunrise/sunset). That way you have an infinite range of ON TIME under full program control.

 

I'm certainly not an expert, so if someone sees and issue with that, let me know but it seems to be working fine. The program becomes very versatile since you can also just take out the sunrise/sunset test and use the lights during daytime hours if needed for your particular application or for testing. I like to have all the options possible - you never know what us geeks want to do next.

 

In a post, someone stated it would be nice to have a catalog of sorts of programs of this type, this might be a good one to offer.

 

Thanks to all that provided assistance and explanations along the way. I'm sure I'll be calling on you again as I grow my system.

[fwoitine]

A little added information.

 

After using the lights like I had set up in the previous message, it appears that it still might be a good idea to set the lights motion sensor switch to the 1 minute position.

 

If you use the test position of the switch the individual light will come on if there is movement during the day hours even though the program is set to only work at night. This is due to the nature of the sense and the relay in a stand alone environment without the isy-99. This allows each light to work as designed if you ever loose control from your isy-99 or if you have your program turned off. You can still use the wait statement to keep them on more than 1 minute after any light senses movement.

 

I'm open to any comments or refinements anyone comes up with.

[oberkc]

The only problem that I see is that the motion sensors will trigger their individual lights on at schedules different than the ISY program. Even if you set your motion sensor only to work at night, the motion sensors will each likely have a slightly different sense of "night", which is also slightly different that the ISY "dusk til dawn".

 

This may be the best you can get, however, given your hardware selection.

[fwoitine]

I think you are right, we've done the best we can. I'm going to remove the sunrise/sunset code from the program and let the sensors control the daytime/nighttime aspect. I think it is still undetermined what will happen if the wait (on) loop is shorter than the timer on the motion sensors, but I don't think I would ever want shorter than one minute anyway. I guess I also loose the benefit of the lights resetting the timer if the motion continues.

 

The devices I used were because of recommendations from SmartHome which included insteon switches, however I may not have described what I wanted adequately. If I had it to do again, I would use stand alone sensors and insteon switches instead.