Multi-Switch w/ KPL LED Question

[jzgersten]

So here is an interesting one…I have my Family room controlled by 3 switches, front, main, and rear. These in turn are controlled by a button on a KPL. I hit the KPL, and all lights r on, and KPL is lit. If KPL is pressed again, all lights off and KPL is off. What I’m trying to do is have the KPL off if any one or more of the other 3 switches is off, and have the KPL on ONLY when ALL three switches are ON. The rear and main are Icon dimmers, and the front is an Icon switch. What’s happening is that the program works only when the Icon Switch (front) is turned on or off…pressing either of the dimmer/rear/main switches does not activate the program successfully.

Here is the programming

 

If

Status 'Family - Main' is Off

Or Status 'Family - Front' is Off

Or Status 'Family - Rear' is Off

 

Then

Wait 3 seconds

Set Scene 'Family - LED' Off

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

If

Status 'Family - Front' is not Off

And Status 'Family - Main' is not Off

And Status 'Family - Rear' is not Off

 

Then

Wait 3 seconds

Set Scene 'Family - LED' On

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Obviously I have a scene called Family-LED with only the KPL in it.

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[oberkc]

What’s happening is that the program works only when the Icon Switch (front) is turned on or off

 

Is it possible that the front switch is set as a controller in your scene "family-LED"? Make sure that the only controller is the keypad button.

 

Those programs, by themselves, look reasonable to me. I wonder, however, if the two, together, are fighting each other. Instead of two, why don't you try one:

 

If 
Status 'Family - Front' is not Off 
And Status 'Family - Main' is not Off 
And Status 'Family - Rear' is not Off 

Then 
Wait 3 seconds 
Set Scene 'Family - LED' On 

Else 
Wait 3 seconds 
Set Scene 'Family - LED' Off 

[jzgersten]

Checked the switches none are controllers in any way. Tried the single program, and it's the same response?!?!?

[oberkc]

I have a program that does this. I did not recall it being overly complicated. When I get the chance later today, I will post it. The only difference is that I have my KPL button on if at least one (as opposed to all) of the related devices is on.

 

But wait....something just occured to me. (I should have asked this originally.) I am starting to think that the response (then or else) is affecting the conditions (if). Does the scene "family LED" include any of the devices in the "if" condition? That is, does this scene include any of: Family - front, family - main, or family - rear?

 

If the scene includes these, then this could be forcing a re-evaluation of the conditions, restarting execution of the program.

[oberkc]

If

Status 'Master Bedroom / SW MBTH Master Bath Vanity Li' is not Off

Or Status 'Master Bedroom / PM MBR Candle' is not Off

Or Status 'Master Bedroom / KP KBA Nightstand Lamp' is not Off

Or Status 'Master Bedroom / OTL MBR Front Wall' is not Off

 

Then

Set Scene 'Bedroom Control' On

 

Else

Set Scene 'Bedroom Control' Off

 

This is my program, and it works great. Besides "or" versus "and", it is very similar to yours and the one I suggested earlier. My scene "bedroom control' has no device in it, other than the KPL button. The "if" condition is unaffected by execution of the "then" or "else" statements.

 

I am looking forward to your response regarding the device content of your scene: "family-led"

[jzgersten]

My Family - LED scene only has the one KPL button i in it. None of the devices are in it...I have tried your program and it still seems to be dependent on the use of the Icon on/off switch, the dimmers have no effect...strange

[LeeG]

jzgersten

 

If the symptom is still the two ICON Dimmers are not triggering the Program, run the Event Viewer with Change Level 3 - Device Communications Events. Press the paddle of either ICON Dimmer and see if there is Insteon message traffic from the ICON Dimmer. If not, likely a link record problem in the ICON Dimmer or the PLM. Both link records are required for the ISY PLM to be notified of a paddle press.

 

Lee

[oberkc]

My Family - LED scene only has the one KPL button i in it. None of the devices are in it...I have tried your program and it still seems to be dependent on the use of the Icon on/off switch, the dimmers have no effect...strange

 

I am with LeeG on this. I don't believe it is a programming issue. Look for link issues or communication issues or faulty devices.

 

While in event viewer level three, turn your various devices on or off and see that you are getting these signals (you will see an event in the viewer). Also, from the admin panel, check the status of each of the devices to see if they are consistent with real world conditions. Additionally, try to control each of the three devices from the ISY.

 

The point of this is to determine that you have good communication between the three devices in your progam, and the PLM. Look for evidence of errors or devices not responding or inconsistencies between the PLM status and device.

[jzgersten]

Gentleman, I opened event viewer as you suggested and then pressed family - rear (15.0B.46)(dimmer), family - main (14.A2.4E)(dimmer), and then family - front (15.12.7D)(on/off), on and then off in the same order. The following was the event log:

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:38 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 14.06.B0 0F.9D.D1 07 6E 44 (44)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:38 AM : [standard-Direct][14.06.B0-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:38 AM : [ 14 6 B0 1] ST 136

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:46 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 15.12.7D 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:46 AM : [standard-Group][15.12.7D-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:46 AM : [ 15 12 7D 1] DON 0

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:46 AM : [ 15 12 7D 1] ST 255

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:46 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 15.12.7D 0F.9D.D1 41 11 01 LTONRR (01)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:46 AM : [standard-Cleanup][15.12.7D-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:49 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 15.12.7D 00.00.01 CB 13 00 LTOFFRR(00)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:49 AM : [standard-Group][15.12.7D-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:49 AM : [ 15 12 7D 1] DOF 0

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:49 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 15.12.7D 0F.9D.D1 41 13 01 LTOFFRR(01)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:49 AM : [standard-Cleanup][15.12.7D-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:49 AM : [ 15 12 7D 1] ST 0

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:49 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.4C CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 12:21:52 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.4C CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

 

It seems that only the front on/off is registering 15.12.7D...However, what to do next is beyond me...lol...thanks for your help.

[LeeG]

jzgersten

 

Great set of information. Thanks. So many times an Event trace is posted and we don't know the addresses of the devices we are looking for. As you concluded the two switches that are not triggering the Program are not showing activity in the Event Viewer. That explains why the Program is not triggering with those two switches. The first step is a right click on one of the switches under My Lighting, selecting Restore Device. The ISY will rebuild the link database in the specific switch. Now see if the Program is triggered by that switch or run the Event Viewer and see if the switch now generates Insteon traffic when the paddle is pressed. If that does not fix the switch, do a File | ISY Backup to get a take a current backup and then File | Restore Modem (PLM) to have ISY restore the PLM link database. Now repeat the switch test again.

 

If the Restore Device resolves the problem the device lost its link records for some reason. If Restore Modem fixes it the PLM lost some link records. Did you replace your PLM recently?

 

Lee

[jzgersten]

Gentleman, So I restored family-main. An retried program to no avail.. I then restored the PLM and ran the following test I opened event viewer as you suggested and then pressed family - rear (15.0B.46)(dimmer), family - main (14.A2.4E)(dimmer), and then family - front (15.12.7D)(on/off), on and then off in the same order. The following was the event log:

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:36 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 15.12.7D 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:36 AM : [standard-Group][15.12.7D-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:36 AM : [ 15 12 7D 1] DON 0

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:36 AM : [ 15 12 7D 1] ST 255

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:36 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 15.12.7D 0F.9D.D1 41 11 01 LTONRR (01)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:36 AM : [standard-Cleanup][15.12.7D-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:39 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.4C CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:48 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 15.12.7D 00.00.01 CB 13 00 LTOFFRR(00)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:48 AM : [standard-Group][15.12.7D-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:48 AM : [ 15 12 7D 1] DOF 0

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:48 AM : [ 15 12 7D 1] ST 0

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:49 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 15.12.7D 0F.9D.D1 41 13 01 LTOFFRR(01)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:49 AM : [standard-Cleanup][15.12.7D-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:21:51 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.4C CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:22:36 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 14.06.B0 0F.9D.D1 07 6E 44 (44)

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:22:36 AM : [standard-Direct][14.06.B0-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1

 

Fri 12/03/2010 01:22:36 AM : [ 14 6 B0 1] ST 136

 

 

Back to the family - front 15.12.7D...When upgrading recently to 2.8.6, I lost all but 19 links in my PLM (out of like 529). I did restore then as well, but this issue has plagued me for some time...

[oberkc]

I am not familiar with all the details of those event logs, but can generally recognize when the ISY recieves a signal from a device. As you both indicated, it does not appear the PLM is able to recieve signals from a couple of your devices. This can also affect the ability to program these devices and restore these devices. Did the restore of these devices seem to take longer than expected?

 

If the restore devices and PLM did not solve your problem, then I think we can only conclude that you are having some communication issues. You can try removing one of your offending devices and adding it back in.

 

There is also a scene test available, but I am not sure that it would tell you anything that you don't already know.

 

There are lot's of posts about solving communication problems, here, and at the smarthome forum. I understand that most communication problems occur when other devices in your house cause interference on your powerlines or attenuate the signals. The typical types of questions that are asked are:

 

a. do you use any filters?

b. do you have access points or some other means to bridge the phases of your electrical system?

c. does your computer sytem include lots of devices with power supplies? Is your PLM plugged into the same outlets and circuits as those devices?

d. do you use a UPS or power conditioner? Is your PLM plugged into this?

 

In your case, I would add:

 

e. does your family room include lots of home theater electronic stuff?

 

There are a few quick things one can do to further confirm communication issues. If you can identify an outlet on the same circuit as your mis-behaving devices, power your PLM from this, using an extension cord if necessary. See if you get better results. Alternatively, you can move some access points around to see if this helps. Put one directly on your PLM. Put another on the same circuit as your troubled devices. See if this helps.

 

As best I can tell, there are no way of positively identifying trouble-causing devices in your house. Best practice seems to be to make educated guesses (computer stuff, home theater stuff, TVs, CFLs, Low voltage lighting systems) and go around unpluggins such things, while observing performance of your insteon system as a result. If you identify any offending devices, put a filter on them.

[LeeG]

jzgersten

 

Very sorry that did not resolve the problem. As you pointed out in the first trace two of the switches are not showing Insteon traffic and that continues to be the case in the second trace. That either means, as oberkc indicates, there are powerline communication problems that prevent family-rear and family-main switches from communicating with the ISY PLM or somehow the link records were not restored properly. Oberkc has provided good suggestions for identifying a powerline communication issue.

 

There are two things I would like to verify if you are willing. Using Tools | Diagnostics | Show Device Links Table display the family-main switch you did a Restore Device for and confirm there is a link record pointing to the ISY PLM. It will look like

 

E2 01 0F.9D.D1 FF 1F 01

 

This is a Controller link for a paddle press with the PLM address 0F.9D.D1 which should be your PLM address. The FF 1F 01 are information only and not actually used by Insteon.

 

Then do a Tools | Diagnostics | Show PLM Links Table and look for the following ….

 

A2 01 14.A2.4E xx yy zz

 

The is a Responder link where xx yy is the New INSTEON Device, Device Type pulldown [xx.yy] value for the family-main switch, and zz is the family-main switch firmware level. The xx yy zz fields are information only. Insteon does not look at that information to generate a message to the PLM. The 14.A2.4E should be family-main switch Insteon address.

 

If both of these link records exist then there is a powerline communication problem. If either of these link records is missing something has gotten lost in what ISY knows about family-main switch.

 

Lee