Load Controller Question (2477SA2 - Normally Closed Relay)

[lawr1000]

I have asked this question before but I am still confused.

 

As I read the Owner's Manual for the 2477SA2 Normally Closed Relay Load Controller I see three separate manual linking procedures.

 

1. Press and hold the set button until the unit beeps. This links a responder to the set button on the load controller. When the load controller is manually turned on/off the linked responder will turn on/off. I have tested this and it works correctly. If the device is added to the ISY with "keep device links" the ISY will see this link.

 

2. Press and hold the set button until the unit beeps, then release. Repeat three times. According to the Smarthome manual this link (Scene 1) will turn on when the load is turns itself on. I have tested this and it works correctly. The ISY will not see this link when added.

 

3. Press and hold the set button until the unit beeps, then release. Repeat five times. This is Scene 2 and this scene will turn on when the load turns itself off.

 

The last time I asked this question Michel Kohanim stated the load controller is identical to a SwitchLinc Relay and there should only be one node. The SwitchLinc Relay manual has no mention of "Load Sense" scenes. So my question is if the Load Controller should look like the SwitchLinc Relay how do I access the two "Load Sense" scenes?

 

Another question I have is "Load Sense" operation. My load sense appears to remain on sometimes even if the Load Controller is turned off. This implies the Load Controller can sense when the connected appliance is calling for power even when off. Since this device is new I don't know if this is a bug or indended operation. Is anybody out there using this device and it's "Load Sense" capabilities?

[Brian H]

Well it depends on the hardware revision of the 2476S SwitchLinc Relay.

Versions between 5.0 to 5.3 had a sense input.

Lower and higher revisions do not have sense inputs.

A separate model 2476SS now has the sense input

 

Yes confusing.

[lawr1000]

Well it depends on the hardware revision of the 2476S SwitchLinc Relay.

Versions between 5.0 to 5.3 had a sense input.

Lower and higher revisions do not have sense inputs.

A separate model 2476SS now has the sense input

 

Yes confusing.

 

Does the sense input on the older switchlinc relays have a separate scene for when load calls for power and another for when it is stops calling for power?

 

From what I understand the load sense scene on the Load Controller is separate and does not turn the relay in the load controller on/off. Or maybe I am misunderstanding the Load Controller documentation.

[LeeG]

The other Insteon devices that have/had a Sense line to turn on the device do not have a separate node in the ISY device list. The Sense line is just another way of turning the device On and Off.

 

I am setting up a test bed for my 240V Load Controller NC. There is only the basic node defined in the ISY. The Load Sense capability is just another way for the device to be turned On or Off. The base node can be used as a Controller or a Responder in an ISY Scene, just as a SwitchLinc or InLine Linc w/sense. The Responders linked to the Load Controller node using an ISY Scene would be considered Scene 1 Responders.

 

I don't think the ISY has support for Scene 2 but that is not verified as yet. I linked a device to Scene 2 and can see that the Controller link record in the Load Controller generated by the Set button process is a little different but not sure I did the Scene 2 link correctly. The LED showed the expected color change at each step but the Quick Start guide called for a double blink which I did not get. Not sure if the device I linked as a Responder for Scene 2 was really set up for Scene 2 or just another Scene 1 Responder. I will post again when I have better information.

[fitzpatri8]

It doesn't look like the ISY firmware was written to support a second control scene with the Load Controller.

 

Not to worry, you easily get the same functionality using ISY programs:

 

1. Unlink any devices you've already manually linked to the Load Controller Scenes 1 and 2.

 

2. Factory reset the Load Controller. Remove and re-add it to ISY.

 

3. Now, rather than link the Load Controller to responder devices, create two programs:

 

If Control [Load Controller] is ON

Set [iSY scene of your choosing] ON

 

If Control [Load Controller] is OFF

Set [2nd ISY scene of your choosing] ON

[lawr1000]

The other Insteon devices that have/had a Sense line to turn on the device do not have a separate node in the ISY device list. The Sense line is just another way of turning the device On and Off.

I think this is the crux of the whole issue. The load sense in the Load Controller does not turn the Load Controller on/off like the sense line in the SwitchLinc relay.

 

I am setting up a test bed for my 240V Load Controller NC. There is only the basic node defined in the ISY. The Load Sense capability is just another way for the device to be turned On or Off. The base node can be used as a Controller or a Responder in an ISY Scene, just as a SwitchLinc or InLine Linc w/sense. The Responders linked to the Load Controller node using an ISY Scene would be considered Scene 1 Responders.

I am not sure this is true. The Load Controller has three separate linking procedures.

The first one is clearly used by the ISY because can turn the load controller on/off with the ISY. For Scene 1 I manually linked a LampLinc. And it does not turn on/off with the Load Controller either manually (with the set button) or via the ISY. It only goes on/off with the Load Active LED on the Load Controller.

 

I don't think the ISY has support for Scene 2 but that is not verified as yet. I linked a device to Scene 2 and can see that the Controller link record in the Load Controller generated by the Set button process is a little different but not sure I did the Scene 2 link correctly. The LED showed the expected color change at each step but the Quick Start guide called for a double blink which I did not get. Not sure if the device I linked as a Responder for Scene 2 was really set up for Scene 2 or just another Scene 1 Responder. I will post again when I have better information.

I too never got a double flash like the manual states but I believe I have a successfull link on Scene 1.

 

It doesn't look like the ISY firmware was written to support a second control scene with the Load Controller.

 

Not to worry, you easily get the same functionality using ISY programs:

 

1. Unlink any devices you've already manually linked to the Load Controller Scenes 1 and 2.

 

2. Factory reset the Load Controller. Remove and re-add it to ISY.

 

3. Now, rather than link the Load Controller to responder devices, create two programs:

Your two programs will work for when the Load Controller is turned on/off manually but they have no relationship to the Load's state (i.e. Water Heater temp is low and elements are on.).

 

This is what I am really getting at. Using the term "Load Sense" may be confusing because how it has been used in other devices. The Load Controller has two LEDs.

 

Controller Switched:

Green for On

Red for Off

 

Load Active:

Green for On

Dark for Off

 

These two LED seem to be unrelated. My Load Active LED is on most of the time even if the Load Controller is Off.

 

The basic difference between Load Active and Load Sense is that Load Active doesn't turn the Load Controller On.

[fitzpatri8]

If you write your programs to trigger based on the 'Status' of the Load Controller, then the program will run any time the Load Controller turns on, no matter if it is because of an outside command or if it is the load triggering it.

 

If you write your programs to trigger based on the 'Control' command, the program will only run if the Load Controller turns on as a result of the load demand turning on.

[LeeG]

I have not completed my Load Controller test bed as yet. Got distracted with another problem and also found I did not have a 240V On/Off switch in my scrap pile. Have everything in hand now and will have that set up today.

 

I see your point about the difference between the Load Controller controlling a normal Responder versus controlling Scene 1 and Scene 2 Responders based on the state of the load On/Off. I will link up responders for all three conditions and see what the Load Controller is using to differentiate a “normal†Responder from a Scene 1 and/or Scene 2 Responder. Yesterday I was pretty sure there was no support for Scene 2 Responders. Now I’m pretty sure there is no support for either Scene x Responders.

 

Much more objective results later today.

[fitzpatri8]

On devices that offer two controller groups vs. one, if you activate the second group you disable the 'off' to the first group. The TriggerLinc is like that. You can either send an On and and Off to group 1, or you can send an ON only to group 1 and and ON only to group 2.

 

Perhaps I'm missing your point. What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

[lawr1000]

If you write your programs to trigger based on the 'Status' of the Load Controller, then the program will run any time the Load Controller turns on, no matter if it is because of an outside command or if it is the load triggering it.

 

If you write your programs to trigger based on the 'Control' command, the program will only run if the Load Controller turns on as a result of the load demand turning on.

 

I agree with both of these statements.

 

I don't want triggers based on changes in the status of the Load Controller (Relay on or off). I want triggers based on load's active state (heating elements in Water Heater on or off). With a Load Controller connected to a water heater there are two relays in the system. One is in the Load Controller (ISY knows the status of this relay). The second is in the water heater and is controlled by a thermostat. When the water is too cold the thermostat closes the internal relay. This is the relay I want the status of and I believe the Load Controller can do this.

[lawr1000]

I have not completed my Load Controller test bed as yet. Got distracted with another problem and also found I did not have a 240V On/Off switch in my scrap pile. Have everything in hand now and will have that set up today.

 

I see your point about the difference between the Load Controller controlling a normal Responder versus controlling Scene 1 and Scene 2 Responders based on the state of the load On/Off. I will link up responders for all three conditions and see what the Load Controller is using to differentiate a “normal†Responder from a Scene 1 and/or Scene 2 Responder. Yesterday I was pretty sure there was no support for Scene 2 Responders. Now I’m pretty sure there is no support for either Scene x Responders.

 

Much more objective results later today.

 

No support for either Scene 1 or 2 is my conclusion too.

 

Thanks for the help!

[fitzpatri8]

According to the instructions for Creating a Load Sense Scene (Normally Closed Relay only):

 

240V Load Controller is capable of storing two scenes, referred to as Scene 1 and Scene 2.

 

Scene 1 is activated when the load turns on

NOTE: When the load is turned off (without Scene 2 set up), all Linked Responders will turn off.

Scene 2 is activated when the load turns off

 

That sounds just like the TriggerLinc, where scene 2 disables the Off on scene 1.

 

The way I read it, using a Load Controller Load Sense scene overrides a Load Controller scene, just as using a Load Sense Scene 2 overrides a Load Sense Scene 1 Off.

 

Lee, can you verify that?

[Illusion]

lawr1000,

 

I am totally with you and I understand your situation.

 

First, this device is a POS when it comes to the 'load active' and load sensing portion.

 

For clarity, lets call the load sense "load demand" to separate it from what everyone else thinks we mean because of the use of the load sensing features included in other Insteon modules to date.

 

As I write this, my first 2477SA2 is sitting in a box waiting to be shipped back to Smarthome because of this failed load demand feature. My load active light was also on when it should not have been. The load active light should never light with the controller switched off. But of course it was. You can see that this is outside of expected operation as there is a table of LED conditions in the full manual and sure enough there is no situation where this condition should exist.

 

The replacement 24777SA2 is even worse. My first one was accurate at load demand if the controller was on but the replacement is wrong most of the time. The load active light on the replacement is almost always on, even though the load is not in demand. I think my load active light is on about 80% of the time with this new module regardless of the module being off or on.

 

I was never able to get my first 2477SA2 to properly control a load demand scene. It would turn on the load demand scene if the 2477SA2 was on and off if the 2477SA2 was off, completely ignoring the load active LED. That may have been because it was brand new when I bought it and it was revision 1.0B.

 

I have not tried to manually link a load demand scene to my replacement 2477SA2 because:

 

1. If I cannot use it in the ISY I do not care about it. I have mentioned the need for a second node for this device several times but I do not think it is yet understood by the UD team what the load demand scene is and how it is different from load sensing from modules in the past.

 

2. The load demand function on this module does not work at all. I have tested the modules (the first one and the replacement) with a 240V load I could control. With the module off the load active light would light sometimes regardless of the load being connected or not. The load active light should be off any time the module is off regardless of load demand. But it appears the load active light has little to do with the load side when the module is off.

 

3. My replacement module incorrectly reports load demand even when the module is on. The first one (which I believe was a beta unit due the the revision number) at least was right if the module was on.

 

4. Even if the ISY supported this feature, and I put the original 2477SA2 back in the system this feature is still useless because the device will report load demand when the module is off. Even without a load connected!!!

 

I would say to ask for a replacement like I did, but what you get will be no better than what you have. Smarthome agrees the module is not working correctly. Their solution was to send me another one that also does not work correctly.

[lawr1000]

On devices that offer two controller groups vs. one, if you activate the second group you disable the 'off' to the first group. The TriggerLinc is like that. You can either send an On and and Off to group 1, or you can send an ON only to group 1 and and ON only to group 2.

 

Perhaps I'm missing your point. What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

 

This is interesting because that is how the Load Controller's manual describes Scene 1 and 2 for the Load Active links. These scenes are controllers only NOT responders. The difference from the TriggerLink is that the Load Controller also has a relay to control the load. It looks like a Normally Closed Load Controller is the combination of a SwitchLinc and TriggerLinc with the TriggerLinc portion sensing when the load is drawing current.

 

Currently ISY only supports the relay (as both controller and responder) to turn power to the load on and off.

 

As an example with the Load Controller connected to a water heater you would know the following

 

Load Controller = on and Load Active = on then the water temp is below the set point

 

Load Controller = on and Load Active = off then the water temp is at of above the setpoint.

[lawr1000]

Thanks for the info Illusion

 

My Load Controller works like your 2nd one which is load demand on even when the Load Controller is off and it is probably not sensing the load demand correctly because it is on all the time when the Load Controller is on. Sometime when I manually turn the Load Controller Off the Load Active light will go off and my manually linked Scene 1 will turn off a LampLinc. At least Scene 1 seems to be working properly.

 

I have a feeling that the Load Demand portion is looking for too low a current draw (most devices have some current draw when off) or the hardware is plain messed up. SmartHome will eventually fix the problem and maybe I'll be able to get the corrected hardware in the future. I be calling SmartHome about the Load Demand issue next week.

 

Hopefully this thread will get UD's attention and at least the ISY software will be corrected to support all of the features the Load Controller. That would be a start.

[Illusion]

I had exactly the same thought about Smarthome eventually fixing the hardware. I posted in their forum and spoke with Customer Service about this issue. Then I waited 5 months and asked for a replacement. And got garbage.

 

So on your load demand scene.... If the module is off and the load active light is on, will you see your lamplinc turn on, and then go off if the load active light goes off? If that is the case at least with the revision Smarthome got the load demand scene to work with the load active LED. Something my first try never did.

 

I cannot bring myself to care enough to try this for myself, as I am currently very frustrated about this issue. As I got the module when it first came out I had a tough time with the install. The first versions had extremely short lead cables and it affected my install process very negatively. I reported this to Smarthome and the cables on the replacement were nice and long. I was happy to see that but for me the change out of modules was very difficult because of the short cable issue from the original module. So I am very upset to wait 5 months, get a replacement, change it out, and find out that in many ways it performs further away from their marketing than the original!!!

[fitzpatri8]

On reviewing the product specs, I do see where it says it is a controller for three separate scenes, not that scene 1 replaces the other scene 1. So I take back that question about the load demand scene 1 taking place of the controller scene 1, it looks like they are separate events.

 

I don't see where operation deviates from marketing, but I do see where the documentation is vague enough that people are reading what they want into it.

 

For instance, what does the Controller Group 1 scene do? As best I can tell, the Controller scene turns on and off when you press the front button. No other time. That doesn't sound terribly useful to my projects so far, but I suppose it does offer a way to track total run time in the event you activate the device manually. Kind of a virtual Hobbs meter, if you are tracking when you need to change a filter or service a pump.

 

What about the Load Controller Sense scenes? First, they operate differently from other Insteon devices with Sense. On an InLineLinc or SwitchLinc with Sense, the device has only one controller scene and power on the Sense line causes the relay to turn on and off unless it is being ignored by the FAST ON or FAST OFF command. On the LC, Sense runs low current through the Load to see if the Load circuit is complete, i.e. that it would draw power if the LC offers it. If so, the LC turns the LOAD ACTIVE light ON.

 

The documentation gets vague here. I see no mention of it, but I would expect that the Load Sense Scene 1 (i.e. Group 2) would send an ON to let your software know that the device was ready to use power when offered, yet not turn on the LC relay. (There's no way to disable the sense on the LC, so you wouldn't want heavy-duty equipment self-starting when your software says it should be off, and there's no mention of support for a Fast On/Fast Off kind of software disablement as with the ILL.)

 

If I'm interpreting correctly, this would allow your software to make some intelligent decisions about when it should consider the load running (so it can track total run time, not just relay on/off time) and when it should consider turning the load on or off. This might be useful when you are running some kind of motor that requires rest periods after use--maybe a well or sump pump that also uses another switch to turn it on or off based on levels.

 

If I've got this right, then it would be helpful for the ISY to support Group 2 on the LC, but you'd need the ISY to be attached to something that can keep count of run time (perhaps HomeSeer or one of the new web-based energy monitoring services) or a future ISY upgrade to include variables and counters to take full advantage.

[Illusion]

I don't see where operation deviates from marketing, but I do see where the documentation is vague enough that people are reading what they want into it.

 

At the very least the LED for 'load active' is coming on outside any specified parameter. If you look at the table of possible LED conditions based on situations you will see that there is no condition for 'load active' while the module is off (not sending power to connected device).

 

Further, the 'load active' is illuminating even if the load is not active.

 

Smarthome agrees in every conversation I have had with them regarding this issue. That is why they sent me a replacement.

[fitzpatri8]

Exactly, documentation, not marketing. Shouldn't there be another line in the chart that says Open with Load On, Solid Red?

 

Clearly this is a niche product that goes above and beyond what your typical module can do. As such, it wouldn't floor me to hear that some of SH's retail staff didn't have a complete grasp of more unique features. I wonder how much training time new staff get on this product?

 

If anything, my complaint would be that they offer a unit like this on their retail line at all. IMHO, this would be better sold and supported by senior folks on the commercial side of the business.

[Illusion]

On the LC, Sense runs low current through the Load to see if the Load circuit is complete, i.e. that it would draw power if the LC offers it. If so, the LC turns the LOAD ACTIVE light ON.

 

The documentation gets vague here. I see no mention of it, but I would expect that the Load Sense Scene 1 (i.e. Group 2) would send an ON to let your software know that the device was ready to use power when offered, yet not turn on the LC relay. (There's no way to disable the sense on the LC, so you wouldn't want heavy-duty equipment self-starting when your software says it should be off, and there's no mention of support for a Fast On/Fast Off kind of software disablement ...

 

Have you been able to get yours to work this way, I would be okay with that. Please tell me how you did it

[lawr1000]

I'm not really trying to get into a pissing contest here. I don't really care if it is documentation or marketing. I started this post to try and understand how this thing really works.

 

If we narrow the focus to what can be done now with the ISY then yes this is a niche product and the ISY doesn't really need to support the extra features of the Load Controller. From my point of view I think this and the new SynchroLinc offer new possibilities going beyond home control and provide a new way of managing energy.

 

The main reason I got the Load Controller was to turn off my water heater while I'm on vacation. From what I read in the DOCUMENTATION (which is where I often go to find out more info) I started realizing that I could also use this device to see how often the water heater was coming on. I could get a profile of usage. In fact I can use the ISY network module in it's current state to send on/off packets to a custom program to extract the needed on/off profiles.

[LeeG]

I have some objective information and some positive results using a Load Controller NC.

 

Each type of Responder, what I’ll call a normal Responder, a Scene 1 Responder and a Scene 2 Responder are assigned different Groups.

 

Normal Responder – Group 1 – turns On/Off as Load Controller turns On/Off

Scene 1 Responder – Group 2 - turns On/Off as load demand turns On/Off

Scene 2 Responder – Group 3 – was not able to generate any condition that caused a Group 3 command

 

This means that if/when the ISY supports Scene x Responders two additional nodes will be required. One that reacts to Group 2 and one that reacts to Group 3. Like a tstat adaptor with 3 Controller only nodes (heat/cool/fan) in addition to the primary node, except the Load Controller would have two Controller only nodes in addition to the primary node, Scene 1 and Scene 2.

 

My Load Active LED follows the load demand On/Off and as the load demand turns On/Off a Group 2 On/Off command is sent to the Scene 2 Responders. However, this only works when the Load Controller is not supplying main power to the load. Since this is a NC Load Controller, the state of the load control relay is opposite to the NO Load Controller which may explain why load demand sensing works only when the load control relay is not supplying main power. This point is surely going to generate various opinions. I’m not suggesting this current approach is the correct approach. Only that it is the way it is working today.

 

There are times when the load demand sensing stops responding. Both the Load Active LED stops changing and the Group 2 commands stop flowing. This seems like a bug in the firmware or maybe the demand sensing circuit. To restore load demand operation I have to turn the load control relay on and off a few times with the load asking for current. Turning the load control relay Off so the load turns Off and then turning the manual switch on the load Off so there is no more demand the Load Active LED turns Off and Group 2 command flow Is reestablished. Things associated with demand load work for several minutes, as long as 15 minutes a few times, following the manual load switch state on the actual load. Eventually the Load Active LED and Group 2 commands stop requiring the procedure I just described to restore demand load sensing operation.

 

The paper tag on the Load Controller shows v1.0. The firmware level of the Load Controller is v3A

 

lawr1000

 

From all my testing so far the Load Controller reliably turns the load On and Off in response to commands from the ISY. It should be fine for controlling the actual water heater.

[fitzpatri8]

Excellent detail, Lee, thank you!

 

I've got a Rev. 1.0B NC unit here, but I can't easily switch the load on and off independently for testing. When I get time this week, I'll try to temporarily relocate it to a different load to rerun your tests. I'll see if I can duplicate your load active results here.

[Illusion]

All,

 

In all my testing and use of both the original unit and the replacement the module always reliably turned the power to the load on and off. The only issues and differences have been in the function and reliability of the load demand circuit.

 

My Load Active LED follows the load demand On/Off and as the load demand turns On/Off a Group 2 On/Off command is sent to the Scene 2 Responders. However, this only works when the Load Controller is not supplying main power to the load.

 

Wow, that is the exact oppisote of the unit I just pulled out and sent back. I had to have the Load Controller supplying main power to the load to get the Load Active LED to function.

[LeeG]

Illusion

 

I picked up the Load Controller a few months ago when Smarthome had a 15 or 20% sale. Established a set of replacement switches for the house in case of failures. Picked up the Load Controller on a whim. It might be an older firmware (v3A) than yours. Clearly something is not stable in the demand load sensing independent of whether it works when the load control relay is energized or deenergized.

 

Do you remember what the firmware level is on the one you are returning?

 

Lee