KPL On/Off Buttons as scene controllers

[mikewu99]

I have a 6 button KPL that I am using as a controller only (no load). I would like each of the six buttons to be used independently as scene controllers. However, when I add the KPL to the ISY I only get five devices(one for the KPL and one for each of buttons A, B, C, and D). Is it possible to use the ON button to control one scene and the OFF button to control another? There would need to be six devices added to the ISY to make this work, not five. I can't find anything in the wiki or in the SH manual. Am I missing something basic here?

[Sub-Routine]

Hi mikewu99,

 

There are 6 and 8 button KPLs; 5 and 8 scenes. You can set the KPL to 8 button mode to have more than 5 scenes.

 

See the KPL FAQ:

ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Linking_a_KeypadLinc#Other_Uses

 

Rand

 

I have a 6 button KPL that I am using as a controller only (no load). I would like each of the six buttons to be used independently as scene controllers. However, when I add the KPL to the ISY I only get five devices(one for the KPL and one for each of buttons A, B, C, and D). Is it possible to use the ON button to control one scene and the OFF button to control another? There would need to be six devices added to the ISY to make this work, not five. I can't find anything in the wiki or in the SH manual. Am I missing something basic here?

[mikewu99]

Thanks for the reply. It is not clear from any documentation that the KPL could have 5 scenes in 6-button mode and 8 scenes in 8 button mode - that is just counterintuitive.

 

Unfortunately right now I am remotely programming a KPL at a vacation home, so I am stuck for the time being since switching to 8 button mode required manual intervention...

[Sub-Routine]

It makes sense that a 6-button with a local load (big On/Off buttons) works this way. It's great that there is an option to change the KPL to/from 8/6.

 

You will need to remove the KPL from the ISY, change the setting, and add it back.

 

Meanwhile you could use an ISY Program to watch for a button press and respond with a scene On.

 

Thanks for the reply. It is not clear from any documentation that the KPL could have 5 scenes in 6-button mode and 8 scenes in 8 button mode - that is just counterintuitive.

 

Unfortunately right now I am remotely programming a KPL at a vacation home, so I am stuck for the time being since switching to 8 button mode required manual intervention...

[LeeG]

mikewu99

 

The Scene number (actually Group number in Insteon hardware parlance) is the same for the ON and OFF buttons when in six button mode. When pressing ON the KPL sends a Group 1 On, when pressing OFF the KPL sends a Group 1 Off. Scenes are based on Group number. That is why the ON and OFF buttons cannot be used to drive different Scenes directly.

 

As Rand already mentioned, ISY Programs can be used to trigger only from an ON button press or only from an OFF button press. There is some latency with this approach compared to a direct device link but it does work well.

 

Lee

[mikewu99]

(1) I though an 8 button KPL also has two buttons which control the load (one ON and one OFF). Why are there eight scenes available and not seven?

 

(2) In a 6 button KPL what is the effect of setting the toggle mode of the ON/OFF switch to Non-Toggle On? Does that make only the ON button functional?

 

(3) The scenes I am controlling are all collections of thermostat settings. I would only be turning one of the scenes on, there is really no situation where I would turn a scene off. What happens when you turn off a scene which only contains thermostats?

[LeeG]

(1) The upper left button, Main (A), of an 8 button KPL controls the load. Press once; it turns the load On and the button LED lights. Press again; it turns the load Off and the button LED goes out. The On/Off function is "toggled" by button presses of the single button rather than pressing one button for ON and a different button for OFF (6 button KPL). The result is the same as the 6 button KPL as far as Insteon commands issued. Press once and the KPL sends Group 1 ON, press the same button again and the KPL sends Group 1 OFF.

 

(2) Not all automation will allow setting the toggle mode of the ON/OFF buttons on a 6 button KPL because the basic behavior of the ON/OFF buttons cannot be changed by a toggle mode change. That is "Toggle" mode alternates between On and Off commands. Toggle mode cannot be assigned to the ON/OFF buttons of a 6 button KPL (the way the KPL works). It has been found that the OFF button will switch between two LED characteristics. First, an OFF button press will always send an OFF command. Normally when pressed the OFF button LEDs light up. The OFF button can be changed to an alternate mode for the LEDs. When operating in this alternate mode the LEDs do not light up when the OFF button is pressed. Some people use this as the lighted OFF button LEDs are a distraction in a dark bedroom. I don't know if anyone has tried to cycle the ON button modes. It cannot cycle through the three toggle modes as it always sends an ON command when pressed. Don't know if the ON button LEDs can be suppressed as the OFF button LEDs can.

 

(3) Don't know what the thermostat does when you send it an OFF command. From what I have read the thermostat is reacting to a particular Insteon command so it may have no effect at all but that is only a guess.

 

EDIT: may not have covered this. Because each button of an 8 button KPL “toggles†between On and OFf (default operation) each button is assigned a unique Group number.

 

Main (A) – Group 1

B – Group 2

C – Group 3

D – Group 4

….

H – Group 8

 

In six mode

 

ON – Group 1

A – Group 3

B – Group 4

C – Group 5

D - Group 6

OFF – Group 1

 

Note that the 8 button KPL button C uses Group 3 which is the same Group number used by the 6 button KPL button A. These are in the same physical button location on both KPLs even though the button letter is different. In the very distant past SmartLabs used the button letters on the 6 button KPL that matched the button letters on the 8 button KPL for buttons in the same physical location (ON,C,D,E,F,OFF). They actually posted a question on the Smarthome forum soliciting user opinions about what letters should be used on a 6 button KPL. They decided to change the letters on the small buttons of the 6 button KPL from C-F to A-D. I always thought that was more confusing but the majority voted for the A-D nomenclature. The underlying Group numbers used by those button were not changed as that would have broken too much existing software.

 

The Group numbers are not important unless you are analyzing Insteon command traffic in the Event Viewer.