IOLinc & Low Voltage Probe (8015)

[Brian H]

Thanks for the DC tests.

I will see what mine does when it gets here.

That sensor was originally used with their older devices. Maybe they didn't research it so well. Users Manual is from 2003.

I have found a few other errors in some of their I/OLinc Kits.

[ELA]

I will be looking forward to reading about your findings Brian.

You are such a good fellow to buy one to experiment with.

 

You would think they had a bridge inside so that polarity would not make a difference? Maybe only half-wave rectification based on the manual listing a polarity?

I had an issue finding the 8015 manual. Can you please direct me?

[Brian H]

I downloaded it awhile back and they seem to have removed the link from the sales page.

Through some searching and knowing their general addressing in their manuals area.

http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/8015_web.pdf

 

It doesn't say too much anyway as the 8015 was originally used on some of their now discontinued products.

 

I believe the I/OLinc mentioned in the 8015 booklet is the old 1624 I/OLInc.

http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/1624_web.pdf

[LeeG]

Looking at the pictures of the probe it shows a three pin plug. The sales page spec says the I/O Linc jack has GND and Sense which seemed odd compared to the pictures. Opened one of my I/O Lincs and found the jack is a three pin jack with GND, Sense, +5V.

 

Looking forward to what you find Brian. I also offer my thanks for going the extra mile on this one.

[Brian H]

Maybe a mistake on the sales page or they know something we don't know yet.

The real small silk screened legend on the I/OLinc does show the tip as +5, Ring as Sensor and body as Ground.

I have rung out the terminal block to the 1/8" stereo jack and it matches.

 

I just checked a hardware version 1.8 and like my old 1.0s. It still has the +5 volts on the tip, sensor on the ring and ground on the body of the 1/8" stereo jack.

[OmegaQuest]

The manual at: http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/8015_web.pdf

 

is the same manual that came with my Probe.

[Brian H]

I received my 8015 today and had a chance to do some tests.

Unless Smarthome got a bad run of them. Some one made a bad choice.

Mine also does not work with a 2450 I/OLinc.

My meter showed no current being drawn by the +5 volts input of the probe. Input sensing voltage On or Off.

Though my meter did show what maybe a small capacitor charging on +5 to Common.

 

The Input seems to be using a single diode on the input.

I had to use my meter to find which wire was the + Input as it had no white wire or stripe.

 

Revision 1.0 2450:

Probe Input Voltage: Input Current: 2450 Sensor to Ground Voltage: Sinking Current by probe:

6.10 Volts DC 4.95 mA. 3.68 Volts DC 0.13 mA.

11.88 Volts DC 10.68 mA. 3.67 Volts DC 0.13 mA.

17.90 Volts DC 16.60 mA. 3.67 Volts DC 0.13 mA.

11.35 Volts AC 5.66 mA. AC 4.15 Volts DC 0.13 mA.

 

Quick check of a revision 1.8 2450:

11.88 Volts DC 3.66 Volts DC

 

I used a small audio amplifier to listen to the sensor terminal to ground as my scope is not easy to get out.

With any of the DC Voltage Inputs there was on click as the sensor voltage dropped. There was a constant Buzz with the AC Input.

Notice the sensor voltage didn't go much lower with a higher voltage and current DC input.

I also noticed the Green Sensor LED would sometimes flash briefly.

 

Sorry if the chart got truncated by the forum software. Looked fine when I created it.

[OmegaQuest]

Arrrrrg, thanks for testing.

 

Guess I will have to return my probe for the second time....

[ELA]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for that investigative work and report back.

 

Sounds like the scope would be helpful.

 

One thought I had is that perhaps the 8015s output "sources current" rather than sinks it? PNP rather than NPN output?

 

You noted earlier that there are three connections and perhaps they were designed for the other equipment interface you referenced and not really compatible with the I/Olinc?

 

Would you consider connecting a dc source (+5) to the 8015, and then a resistor (maybe 10k) from the output terminal to ground and then measure the output across that resistor ( while varying the input)? This would be a test exclusive of the I/O linc, or just using its supply and not its input circuit.

[Brian H]

ELA, No problem. I can add that to some other tings I was going to try.

Yes digging the scope out is also on the list.

 

The 8015 was originally used with their X10 line of devices many years ago. Including a different model I/OLinc for X10.

[Brian H]

Since there is no connection information for the 8015. I used the information silk screened on the 2450 I/OLinc.

Tip + 5V, Ring Signal Out and Shell ground.

 

Did some added tests.

2450 I/OLinc v1.0 providing +5 volts and ground. Sensor Terminal NC.

 

10K resistor from 8015 out to ground. No voltage on resistor with 6.10 or 11.88 VDC or 11.35 VAC connected to the 8015 Input.

 

10K resistor from 8015 out to +5 VDC. 5 VDC on 8015 out to ground with no Input. 3.69 VDC on 8015 out to ground with 6.10 or 11.88 VDC on Input.

4.1 VDC on 8015 out to ground with a 11.35 VAC connected to the Input.

 

My scope did show something interesting and may explain why the Sensor LED flashes briefly when the Input is applied.

 

Using the above setup. The 5 VDC pulses close to zero the rises back up to 3.69 VDC on the 8015 out to ground. With the DC voltages on the Input.

 

The AC Input gives you a SQUARE wave on the 8015 out to ground.

 

I then removed the 10K pull up and used the Sensor of the 2450 I/OLinc.

Basically the same thing. Pulsed close to zero and ramped partially up with a DC Input to the 8015

and a square wave with the AC Input to the 8015.

 

I don't see anyway an 8015 can work with a 2450 I/OLinc. Unless this batch of 8015s is flawed and QC didn't catch it.

[ELA]

Excellent information Brian,

Thanks for including that test.

 

As always a picture tells a thousand words and whenever one has access to an Oscope that is the way to go.

 

I have a 2450 I/O linc but have yet to play with it much. I bought it for possible future use and so there is much I do not know about its operating modes.

 

Do you know what the minimum pulse time might be that is required to utilize the 2450 latching mode? Is the pulse time of the 8015 too short for that mode?

[LeeG]

ELA

 

Latching mode applies to the I/O Linc Relay. The I/O Linc Sensor has no optional modes. There is an I/O Linc option for the Relay to follow the Sensor but this overrides the Relay Latching mode. The Relay does not Latch up if the Sensor is pulsed.

[ELA]

Thanks LeeG,

 

I should have stated, "what is the reaction time of the 2450 input". Minimum pulse time required?

 

I do not have much time this morning but I set up a quick test. When I pulse the sense input (as fast as I can with a quick touch of a wire to input) I see the led flash briefly and the unit does send a command over the power lines.

 

Perhaps this unit reacts to a faster input (communications wise) than it takes to energize an output relay. It would be nice to know the actual time requirements to active the individual components (comm. vs relay out).

 

I could do this early next week for interest sake if Brian does not beat me to it

 

If there is an ISY involved in this setup maybe a program can be used to catch the faster input and drive the output relays with another command (to pulse the relays for long enough to trip the doorbell?

[OmegaQuest]

But the Probe never changes the Sensor on the IOLinc to turn to the On state (even for a split second), so the ISY would never know it.

[LeeG]

Radio Shack carries a simple 24VAC relay ($11.64). Connect the coil in parallel with the door bell, just as the probe was connected, and the Com and N/O contacts to the I/O Linc GND/Sensor connections respectively.

 

NTE R14-11A10-24 10Amp 24VAC Relay

Model R14-11A10-24 Catalog #: 55048264

 

Tests show it takes less than a second of GND to Sensor to cause the I/O Linc Sensor to send the On command. Any press of the door bell button that rings the door bell will trigger the I/O Linc Sensor.

[Brian H]

My tests with a 2450 I/OLinc shows you have to pull the Sensor Input below 1 volt.

For the Sensor to trigger the module.

About 780 Ohms from Sensor to Ground triggers it.

The Sensor LED can glow before the voltage is below 1.0 volts so it is not always a indicator it was triggered.

 

My v1.0 Input:

A 180 Ohm resistor from Sensor Input to a pin on the controller chip.

A 2.2K resistor in series with the Green Sensor LED from +5 to the controller side of the 180 Ohm resistor.

A 10K resistor from +5 Volts to the controller side of the 180 Ohm resistor.

 

LeeG's relay sounds like a good method to trigger the I/OLinc.

[ELA]

Agreed that a interposing relay is always an option and a good suggestion.

 

Brian,

You had spent enough time investigating that I thought it might be interesting to understand more about how "someone at SM" thought that the 8015 could be used with the 2450.

 

You stated that an AC input to the 8015 produced a square wave output. How close did the "low time" come to ground, was it below 1 volt?

You also stated that a DC input produced a pulse that came close to zero. Do you have an estimate of the time that that pulse was below 1 volt?

 

I would like to know if the short pulse of the 8015 could possibly be enough to cause the 2450 to at least send an on/off command.

 

OmegaQuest did not "see" a transition in the ISY status but it might have been too fast for him to observe (that is if the 2450 sent a on followed immediately by an off).

If there were no log entries then I guess that answers that.

 

We are talking about milliseconds here and I have no idea if the ISY would be able to trigger in a program if the 2450 did send back to back on/offs.

I am just wanting to get a little more understanding.

 

I intend to run tests early next week when I have access to the required equipment to determine the minimum pulse input required to cause the 2450 to recognize a pulsed input ( both in terms of relay activation and sending an on/off command).

[LeeG]

When I touch the Sensor to GND (a few hundred mili-seconds at most) the I/O Linc generates a full Group On message sequence followed by a full Group Off message sequence. Each Group sequence consists of a Group Broadcast, Group Cleanup Direct and ACK back from PLM to the I/O Linc. I had no problem seeing the Admin Console change the Current State column from Off to On to Off.

 

This does not answer the question of minimum pulse width but it does seem to show if the probe had taken the Sense input to GND even for a short time there would have been Insteon message generated. There are always thresholds so a few mili-seconds might not cause the I/O Linc to generate a Group message.

[Brian H]

ELA, I will be very interested in your findings.

My old Heathkit Scope is not the best at accurate readings these days.

I don't think the square wave was anywhere close to <1 volt.

I don't think my I/OLinc ever sent any messages as the sensor LED was not very bright when it pulsed On and I did not see the LED on the side toggle bright indicating a transmission was done.

 

I don't have too many thoughts on why they thought the 8015 would work with an I/OLinc.

Why did the original Water and Moisture Sensor kit have a Flood Stop sensor in it that was a grid of bare copper runs that watter would cause a leakage current. That didn't trigger the I/OLInc with some users having fairly pure water. Didn't pull Sensor Input close enough to Ground.

 

Or the original RFID Kit that triggered instantly because of a wire that should have been caped off being connected to the ELK Sensitive Relay Boards + Trigger Input. I found that one and posted it in the Smarthome Forums. The instructions eventually got updated.

[ELA]

Hi Brian,

 

I know this is probably not really important information with regard to the 8015 probe but I did measure the

minimum response time of the 2450 to a pulse on the sense input and the unit tested would activate at 40 milliseconds. Of course this value my vary a little from unit to unit but just for anyone's future reference.

At the 40 msec it would send all four messages.

 

This is pretty fast although probably a little slow still for the 8015.

 

Will you followup with Smarthome as to your findings on the 8015 and return the unit?

 

I am still curious, did they forget to load some parts or what? A device that will track the 60hz ac input with a square wave out seems to have limited usage? Especially if it is not pulling below 1 volt?

[Brian H]

I may just send it back using their online order options.

Or my curious side may cut the shrink tube off of the insulated case and look at the guts.

[ELA]

I vote for "Spill the guts!" And let us see all the gory details!

 

Really though ... if you return it wouldn't it be worth a call to alert them of the issue?

I know how frustrating it can be trying to get them to understand there is an issue so no one could blame you if you simply returned it.

[Brian H]

I decides to make the 8015 mine and cut the shrink tubing off of one end of the assembly.

Then slid it out of the heavy cardboard tube.

The colors of the wire terminals marking on the PCB did match the cable itself.

I did a rough sketch and found something strange. A surface mounted transistor from +5 to Ground.

When the 8015 is turned on the +5 volt supply current to the probe was like 35 mA.

After studying the diagram I made. It looked like the Sensor and +5 volt connections are reversed.

 

On my patch breadboard I reversed the +5 and Sensor connections and the 8015 worked 100%.

With both AC and DC the Sensor LED stayed on Bright and the I/OLInc sent an On when activated and an Off when deactivated. There is a slight delay for a capacitor to diacharge before the Off is sent.

 

Since the colors of the wires match the silk screening on the small PCB. I can only think either the cable is incorrect or the original equipment the 8015 was designed for.

Sensor on the TIP and +5 volts on the ring.

 

I would highly recommend anyone with an 8015 and an I/OLinc to NOT use it as it places a short across + 5 Volts To ground when activated.

[OmegaQuest]

Interesting. Maybe I should try the same (swap the wires) because sending it back takes so much time to ever get a refund and the only other alternative is a $46 Elk ELK-930 detector...