Changing a switch from an 8n button to a six button

[Schoolhouse]

I was using a switch as an eight button configuration successfully programming numerous scenes.

 

Then I changed the switch to a 6 button. I deleted the 8 button from my ISY and linked it in anew, recognizing a 6 button. I successfully programmed the major load button to control a larger scene. The top two work as on, and the bottom two work as off.

 

So far so good, but when I look at my iPad HD, it shows up as an 8 button. What do I do now?

 

Thank you!

[LeeG]

Unless you specified the Device Type when the KeypadLinc was added back after changing to 6 button mode it will be added as an 8 button KeypadLinc. The ISY uses the Cat/Subcat value (device type) when using Auto Discover. This value will indicate how the KeypadLinc was manufactured, not what mode it is currently in.

 

Take a look at line 2 in the right pane of the Admin Console. What does it show for the device type and what is the device firmware level.

[Schoolhouse]

Yes, you are exactly right. When I linked, it only gave me the standard 5 items for a 6 button, but the second line says Dimmer 8 as you surmised.

[Schoolhouse]

How do I get it recognized as a 6 button?

[LeeG]

If the ISY defined 5 nodes it knows it is in 6 button mode. What are you trying to solve.

[Schoolhouse]

The ISY shows it as an eight button, even though it only knows 5 nodes.

 

One of the buttons is being used to trigger a program. The button being turned on is not being seen by the ISY.

 

I am trying to solve that problem and I figured starting with having the ISY know it as a six button might help.

 

I still have the old 8 button faceplate on the switch, but I did not think that made a difference in the recognition

[LeeG]

The face plate makes no difference. Some users put the 6 button configuration on an 8 button KeypadLinc still configured as an 8 button KeypadLinc.

 

Click on My Lighting which shows all the nodes and displays their status. Scroll to the KeypadLinc in question. Cycle the ON/OFF buttons and each of the Secondary buttons. Which buttons show a state change in the Current State column, which buttons do not?

EDIT: the Admin Console is displaying the Device Type the device presented when the device was added to the ISY. The KeypadLinc identifies the Device Type as it was manufactured, not how it is configured. It was manufactured as an 8 button dimmer thus that is the Device Type it indicates. Should the device be factory reset (explicitly or by accident because of a power glitch) it will revert back to 8 button mode.

 

When a KeypadLinc button is pressed the inbound Insteon message carries a Group number that identifies which button was pressed. The Secondary A button in 6 button mode, which is the Secondary C button in 8 button mode uses the same Group number. Regardless of how a button is labeled, regardless of the KeypadLinc button mode (6 or the physical button presents the same Group number. The difference between 6 and 8 button mode is the number of nodes (Groups) the device can present, not what Group number the buttons use.

[Schoolhouse]

1) Added a mecahnical insteon bridge in panel

 

2) put a six button cover on the switch. Deleted and reinstalled successful the 6 button and it shows as a 6 button now in ISY. Success on one level. But, ISY can control button perfectly, while mechanical changes at switch do not appear in ISY status.

 

And

 

3) An 8 button slave main button controls the scene mechanically perfectly. It does not, however reflect the status of any part of the scene in the ISY. So we deleted it at button as a controller and then added back as a controller. At the end of the addition as controller, we perceived the errors message "communication failed, check connection." The switch again functions perfectly with other buttons, but not the ISY. The connections seem to be fine.

 

Are all these related? If not, what are the individual fixes?

 

FYI, I upgraded the system to 3.1.17 and also upgraded to ISY 99i Pro.

 

I seem to be having a lot of issues post upgrade that were not present beforehand.

[LeeG]

1) What specifically (device type) was added to bridge the 120V legs. Most devices at the power panel are passive couplers which do not boost the signal to the other leg. A passive coupler that was designed for X10 may not be effective for Insteon.

 

2) The action described versus the results achieved do not corrolate. Exactly what does line 2 of the Admin Console right pane show for the 8 button KeypadLinc converted to 6 button mode. I don’t care about the Insteon address, but all information after that.

 

“An 8 button slave main button controls the scene mechanically perfectly. “ Do not under the circumstances being described. The term mechanically is an usual term applied to an ISY Scene. There is an ISY Scene with some devices as Controllers and Responders. An 8 button KeypadLinc Main button (upper left corner) was added to the ISY Scene as a Controller. There were comm errors displayed during the addition of the 8 button Main button to the ISY Scene?

 

3) It is certainly possible for a device to talk to another device but not able to communicate with the ISY PLM. Often the PLM is plugged into a circuit where there are other devices that interfere with Insteon message traffic. UPS/PC equipment not on a FilterLinc. The PLM could be in a surge suppression outlet that will interfere with Insteon traffic.

 

Have all links been created using the ISY or have some links been established with device Set buttons?

 

Comm problems often have more than one source. There are no good tools for Insteon so it is a process of elimination. Putting UPS/PC equipment on a FilterLinc. No surge suppressor on the PLM circuit. The two are simple and should be done regardless of whether the fix a specific symptom. The overall performance will be better with these.

 

Are the 8 to 6 button KeypadLinc button state changes now appearing in the Admin Console for all the buttons? If so it would indicate a problem when the KeypadLinc was initially added getting all the link records created.

 

With as many symptoms that are occurring it does sound like there are still comm problems. 3.1.17 was extensively tested before being identified as an official release and it is being used by many installations not seeing the issues you are seeing. It is normal to think about the last major ISY change. I had a user tell me his system was working 100% before an upgrade (not to 3.1.17). The root cause of the problem was the PLM was plugged into a surge suppressor. The system could not have been 100% before the upgrade. Just the way the mind works.

[oberkc]

put a six button cover on the switch. Deleted and reinstalled successful the 6 button and it shows as a 6 button now in ISY. Success on one level. But, ISY can control button perfectly, while mechanical changes at switch do not appear in ISY status.

 

Forgive me if I am pointing out the obvious, but swapping face plates is not sufficient (or even necessary) to re-configure a six-button keypad to eight-button, or vice versa. More importanly, there is an electronic configuration process. This electronic process is (at least was when I performed it) defined in the keypad users manual. This process entailed pressing a bunch of buttons in a certain order, if I recall. I also believe that this MUST be done manually, since I do not think that this can be performed via the ISY.

 

In summary, one must remove the keypad from the ISY. Electronically reconfigure the keypad (it seems to me a factory reset would be appropriate here). Change the face plate (optional). Add new device back into ISY.This worked beautifully for me when I did this a while back.

[Schoolhouse]

1) What specifically (device type) was added to bridge the 120V legs. Most devices at the power panel are passive couplers which do not boost the signal to the other leg. A passive coupler that was designed for X10 may not be effective for Insteon.

 

 

ANSWER: Insteon bridge coupler designed for Insteon

[Schoolhouse]

2) The action described versus the results achieved do not corrolate. Exactly what does line 2 of the Admin Console right pane show for the 8 button KeypadLinc converted to 6 button mode. I don’t care about the Insteon address, but all information after that.

 

ANSWER: (2486D) KeypadLinc Dimmer 6 buttons v.00

[Schoolhouse]

An 8 button slave main button controls the scene mechanically perfectly. “ Do not under the circumstances being described. The term mechanically is an usual term applied to an ISY Scene. There is an ISY Scene with some devices as Controllers and Responders. An 8 button KeypadLinc Main button (upper left corner) was added to the ISY Scene as a Controller. There were comm errors displayed during the addition of the 8 button Main button to the ISY Scene?

 

ANSWER: When we walk around and push buttons, all work perfect for the scecne. When we go into ISY, it does not see current status.

 

 

There were comm errors displayed during the addition of the 8 button Main button to the ISY Scene?

 

ANSWER Yes. It said Check connections. All physical connections are working.

[Schoolhouse]

3) It is certainly possible for a device to talk to another device but not able to communicate with the ISY PLM. Often the PLM is plugged into a circuit where there are other devices that interfere with Insteon message traffic. UPS/PC equipment not on a FilterLinc. The PLM could be in a surge suppression outlet that will interfere with Insteon traffic.

 

 

ANSWER: it has its own dedicated circuit with no surge protector.

[Schoolhouse]

Have all links been created using the ISY or have some links been established with device Set buttons?

 

ANSWER: All links created with ISY

 

 

Comm problems often have more than one source. There are no good tools for Insteon so it is a process of elimination. Putting UPS/PC equipment on a FilterLinc. No surge suppressor on the PLM circuit. The two are simple and should be done regardless of whether the fix a specific symptom. The overall performance will be better with these.

 

ANSWER: Already done weeks ago

 

 

Are the 8 to 6 button KeypadLinc button state changes now appearing in the Admin Console for all the buttons? If so it would indicate a problem when the KeypadLinc was initially added getting all the link records created.

 

 

ANSWER: Numerous button state changes for numerous switches are not showing the actual changes in current status when buttons (or paddle) pressed.

 

 

 

With as many symptoms that are occurring it does sound like there are still comm problems. 3.1.17 was extensively tested before being identified as an official release and it is being used by many installations not seeing the issues you are seeing. It is normal to think about the last major ISY change. I had a user tell me his system was working 100% before an upgrade (not to 3.1.17). The root cause of the problem was the PLM was plugged into a surge suppressor. The system could not have been 100% before the upgrade. Just the way the mind works.

 

 

ANSWER: Your suggestions are greatly appreciated. Perhaps the ANSWERS supplied in the series of posts will jog another item to consider.

[Schoolhouse]

Forgive me if I am pointing out the obvious, but swapping face plates is not sufficient (or even necessary) to re-configure a six-button keypad to eight-button, or vice versa. More importanly, there is an electronic configuration process. This electronic process is (at least was when I performed it) defined in the keypad users manual. This process entailed pressing a bunch of buttons in a certain order, if I recall. I also believe that this MUST be done manually, since I do not think that this can be performed via the ISY.

 

In summary, one must remove the keypad from the ISY. Electronically reconfigure the keypad (it seems to me a factory reset would be appropriate here). Change the face plate (optional). Add new device back into ISY.This worked beautifully for me when I did this a while back.

 

ANSWER: We did do exactly all that. Rather than use auto discover, we specified it as a 6 button.

[LeeG]

Thanks for the additional information.

 

"ANSWER: (2486D) KeypadLinc Dimmer 6 buttons v.00"

 

The v.00 indicates the KeypadLinc was added to the ISY this time by selecting the 6 button KPL from the New INSTEON Device “Device Type†pulldown. That gives you the words Dimmer 6 (which mean nothing as far as ISY function is concerned) but now the KeypadLinc firmware is not known (v.00) so some of the features that require later firmware levels may not be utilized.

 

“ANSWER: Insteon bridge coupler designed for Insteonâ€

 

That is a passive coupler. It may still be necessary to have a pair of Dual Band devices installed on opposite 120V legs.

 

“ANSWER: it has its own dedicated circuit with no surge protector.â€

 

Are there other equipment on that circuit breaker such as UPS/PC/Audio/Video equipment that are not on a FilterLinc?

[Schoolhouse]

FYI, Query status is False, if that is at all relevant

[LeeG]

Is there any pattern to the devices that are not reporting state changes?

 

Are they powered from the same 120V leg or powered from the same circuit breaker?

 

What type of PLM is being used with the ISY (2412 or 2413)? How many devices and ISY Scene have been defined? It is possible to define more devices and Scenes than the 2413S PLM has the capacity to support. Run Tools | Diagnostics | Show PLM Links Table. When the display is complete click the Count button. Run the Show/Count multiple times to see if the number of link records is consistent. Insteon traffic reaching the PLM while the PLM link records are being retrieved will produce false link record counts (high or low).

[Schoolhouse]

"ANSWER: (2486D) KeypadLinc Dimmer 6 buttons v.00"

 

The v.00 indicates the KeypadLinc was added to the ISY this time by selecting the 6 button KPL from the New INSTEON Device “Device Type†pulldown. That gives you the words Dimmer 6 (which mean nothing as far as ISY function is concerned) but now the KeypadLinc firmware is not known (v.00) so some of the features that require later firmware levels may not be utilized.

 

 

 

OKAY, WE WILL DELETE AND DO AN AUTO INSTALL

 

 

 

 

“ANSWER: Insteon bridge coupler designed for Insteonâ€

 

That is a passive coupler. It may still be necessary to have a pair of Dual Band devices installed on opposite 120V legs.

 

 

WE HAVE DUAL BAND ALSO

 

 

“ANSWER: it has its own dedicated circuit with no surge protector.â€

 

Are there other equipment on that circuit breaker such as UPS/PC/Audio/Video equipment that are not on a FilterLinc?

 

 

NO OTHER EQUIPMENT

[Schoolhouse]

Is there any pattern to the devices that are not reporting state changes?

 

Are they powered from the same 120V leg or powered from the same circuit breaker?

 

ALL ARE DIFFERENT LEGS

 

What type of PLM is being used with the ISY (2412 or 2413)?

 

2413S

 

How many devices and ISY Scene have been defined? It is possible to define more devices and Scenes than the 2413S PLM has the capacity to support. Run Tools | Diagnostics | Show PLM Links Table. When the display is complete click the Count button. Run the Show/Count multiple times to see if the number of link records is consistent. Insteon traffic reaching the PLM while the PLM link records are being retrieved will produce false link record counts (high or low).

 

928 IS THE COUNT (CHECKED TWICE)

 

IT MAY BE RELEVANT TO NOTE THAT I PREVIOUSLY PROGRAMMED ONE SCENE, ONE CONTROLLER, GIVING ME FAR MORE SCENES THAN I NEEDED. WHEN I LEARNED THAT I CAN HAVE MULTIPLE CONTROLLERS PER SCENE, I WENT BACK AND CONSOLIDATE ALL THE SCENES, DELETING MANY REDUNDANT SCENES.

 

ON OCCASION IN THIS PROCESS, I RECEIVED AN ERROR MESSAGE THAT SAID A FILE COULD NOT BE OPENED AND THAT THE CONTROLLER FAILED. SINCE THE CONTROLLER WAS INSTALLED AND WAS WORKING, I FIGURED IT FIXED ITSELF AFTTER THE MESSAGE, BECAUSE IT DID APPEAR IN THE SCENE AS A CONTROLLER, AND DID OPERATE AS A CONTROLLER

 

WHEN I CHECK MY ERROR LOG, I DO NOT FIND ANY PLACE THAT RECORDED WHICH DEVICES REPORTED THESE ISSUES.

 

 

 

WOULD IT HELP TO RESTORE PLM TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM THAT STATUS NOT BEING UPDATED TO CURRENT STATUS?

[Brian H]

Well the 2413S has a link database size of 1023. So you are close.

[Schoolhouse]

Regarding the 6 button, I deleted and did an auto recognize install. It shows the standard 6 button configuration and line two on the right window shows the device to be a (2486D( Keypadlinc Dimmer 8 buttons v.40

 

The ISY can perfectly control the switch and change the status from on to off. the switch, when the buttons are pushed turn the light on and off, but do not tell the ISY about the current state change.

[LeeG]

"928 IS THE COUNT (CHECKED TWICE)"

 

Although the PLM spec says 1023 tests here indicate 992 as the maximum. All attempts to add link records past the 992 point failed. I suspect you did exceed the PLM link count as some point.

 

I would do a Restore Modem (PLM) followed by a few more Show/Counts to see where the count is now.

 

"WE HAVE DUAL BAND ALSO"

 

Do the Dual Band devices pass the test for receiving RF and installed on opposite 120V legs?

[Schoolhouse]

Although the PLM spec says 1023 tests here indicate 992 as the maximum. All attempts to add link records past the 992 point failed. I suspect you did exceed the PLM link count as some point.

 

I would do a Restore Modem (PLM) followed by a few more Show/Counts to see where the count is now.

 

OKAY, I WILL DO IT. IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WILL TAKE HOURS AND I SHOULD START BEFORE I GO TO BED AND TURN OFF QUERY FOR A NIGHT?

 

 

 

Do the Dual Band devices pass the test for receiving RF and installed on opposite 120V legs?

 

MY INSTALLER WENT HOME AND HE HAS THE DETAILS. I HAVE A PRAGMATIC VIEW. IF THE ISY CAN COMMUNICATE TO EVERY SWITCH CRYSTAL CLEAR, CAN WE RULE OUT A COMMUNICATION ISSUE REGARDING THE LEGS?

 

THE ISY CAN TELL EVERY SWITCH WHAT TO DO WHEN WITHOUT ANY PROBLEM IN COMMUNICATIONS. ON THE OTHER HAND, SOME OF MY SWITCHES DON'T TELL THE ISY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. THAT DIES NOT FEEL LIKE AN RF PROBLEM, THOUGH IT MAY BE.

 

FYI:

 

WHEN I DELETE A SWITCH THAT DOES NOT TELL THE ISY WHAT IT IS DOING, AND REINSTALL SUCCESSFULLY, THE PROBLEM DOES NOT FIX ITSELF.

 

WHEN I DELETE A SWITCH THAT IS TELLING THE ISY WHAT IT IS DOING AND REINSTALL, THIS SWITCH STILL CAN SUCCESSFULLY TELL THE ISY WHAT IT IS DOING.