Diagnosing my Comm issues again.

[jmed999]

I've been spending my day off trying to diagnose my com issues again. I received more filterlincs so I can use those too.

 

The first thing I tried was using an extension cord from my PLM out to my garage to an outlet closest to the elect panel. This didn't help except when I also plugged and access point into the same outlet. This setup did help a couple of devices (relay ouletlinc) but not all of them so I'm pushing on.

 

Is it strange that the devices work better when the PLM is used in conjunction with an access point in the same outlet?

[jmed999]

Also, lots of my devices are getting Hops left = 1. I'm calling that communication issues since they used to have Hops left = 2. To most of you, what are communication issues? "Device not responding", Hops left = 1, or 0, etc?

[LeeG]

Hops Left=1 by itself does not indicate a problem. If the device is reliable at that Hops Left count, if that count is consistent all the time, I do not see that as a problem. The traces from other posts showed Hops Left count jumping around 2,1,0, no device response at all. That is a problem.

 

When a Hops Left count has consistently been a 2 and it drops to a 1 with no explanation, that is something to look into. Something changed. A new appliance is generating noise, or absorbing the powerline signal. Some new source of RF interference.

 

A consistent Hops Left=0 when Max Hops=3 is something to look into. There is no place for that to go but a device that does not work.

[jmed999]

Thanks! My oven is consistently giving me problems. Instead of removing the oven from the wall to add a filterlinc could I use one of these instead and the breaker itself...

 

http://www.smarthome.com/4846/ACT-AF300-20-Amp-Low-Pass-Filter/p.aspx

 

Those get bad reviews so I'm not sure how good they are.

[jmed999]

Also, I consistently have problems with the breaker connected to the inline phase coupler. There is nothing else on the breaker. Does this mean I have a faulty in line phase coupler?

[LeeG]

No experience with the referenced filter.

 

Is the breaker powering the passive wired filter tripping the breaker?

[jmed999]

No experience with the referenced filter.

 

Is the breaker powering the passive wired filter tripping the breaker?

 

Sorry, I do not understand you second part

[Brian H]

The built in oven would draw too much current for a FilterLinc and you would instantly blow the FilterLincs internal fuse.

Unless you could somehow rewire the oven so only the controls that draw less current would be filtered.

You may also want to look at the ovens ratings. It may draw even more than 20 amps the ACT filter is designed for.

The X10 XPF is also a wired in 20 amp unit.

[jmed999]

I still have some strange things happening that are making this super tricky. Ie. I have a few breakers when on the hops left goes down and when off the hops left goes up. Here's the thing, there is absolutely nothing plugged in those breakers.

 

I think I need to get a couple things filtered that I know are causing problems and go from there.

 

I'm going to test a couple more devices now.

[jmed999]

The built in oven would draw too much current for a FilterLinc and you would instantly blow the FilterLincs internal fuse.

Unless you could somehow rewire the oven so only the controls that draw less current would be filtered.

You may also want to look at the ovens ratings. It may draw even more than 20 amps the ACT filter is designed for.

The X10 XPF is also a wired in 20 amp unit.

 

I bet you are correct. So how could I filter the oven? It is causing havoc on my HA system.

[LeeG]

"I consistently have problems with the breaker connected to the inline phase coupler"

 

What kind of problem?

 

"Here's the thing, there is absolutely nothing plugged in those breakers."

 

You mean the breakers are not powering anything or the things being powered are not the pluggable type. At least half of the devices/appliances in a house are not pluggable. Those circuits need to be evaluated to see what is the source of the problem.

[jmed999]

Ok the next device I am doing a breaker test on is a dimmable lamplinc module. It's the 3 prong older wall wart type. For this device with all breakers off except the lamp and the isy/plm, router and modem it does great. Consistently hops left = 2. But when I flip my kitchen refrigerator breaker on it stops responding

 

The refrigerator has a filterlinc on it. How can this be causing a problem?

[jmed999]

"I consistently have problems with the breaker connected to the inline phase coupler"

 

What kind of problem?

 

"Here's the thing, there is absolutely nothing plugged in those breakers."

 

You mean the breakers are not powering anything or the things being powered are not the pluggable type. At least half of the devices/appliances in a house are not pluggable. Those circuits need to be evaluated to see what is the source of the problem.

 

Sorry for not being clear.

 

-I have a breaker connected to an in line phase coupler only. When I turn that breaker off the hops left for some devices goes up not down. Then when I turn that breaker on the hops left goes down for those same devices.

 

-ie. I have a breaker going to a bedroom that has nothing pluggable it in. The room is empty and the lights are on another breaker. With nothing plugged in that circuit still gives me problems for some devices. By problems I mean when the breaker is on the hops left goes down for some devices.

[Brian H]

As far as you can determine. Only the refrigerator is on that circuit?

Does anything change if the Filterlinc is in the outlet alone with out the refrigerator or both are not in the outlet?

 

I believe ELA in one of his excellent signal test threads. Found a FilterLinc slightly loads down a Insteon Signal but I don't think it was enough to go from 2 hops left to not responding.

[LeeG]

Unplug the refrigerator and see if the problem continues. It sounds like there is something else on that breaker

 

The hard wired SignaLinc is a passive coupler. No signal analysis, no determination of Insteon signal versus noise. No amplification. Noise on leg A is coupled to leg B (or vice versa) when the breaker is On. I do not use and do not like the passive SignaLinc. When things are good it works fine. When Insteon signals reaching the power panel on leg A are at a good amplitude and there is no noise, that signal is passively coupled to the other leg the same way.

 

If there is noise, if the Insteon signal reaching the power panel has a low signal level, it is passively coupled to the other leg at the low signal level and with whatever noise that is present.

 

Active coupling (Access Points) to not couple noise. An Insteon signal reaching the Access Point on leg A, even if at a reduced signal level is repeated on the other leg at full Insteon signal level.

 

There are folks who swear by the passive SignaLinc. I would not have one if they gave them away.

[jmed999]

As far as you can determine. Only the refrigerator is on that circuit?

Does anything change if the Filterlinc is in the outlet alone with out the refrigerator or both are not in the outlet?

 

I believe ELA in one of his excellent signal test threads. Found a FilterLinc slightly loads down a Insteon Signal but I don't think it was enough to go from 2 hops left to not responding.

 

I'm very glad you asked this...

 

I unplugged the ref but left the filterlinc plugged in and I continued to consistently get "device not resp". Then I unplugged the filter and consistently got 2 hops leftwith nothing plugged in that outlet. I tried this a few times. With either the ref or filter plugged in the lamp didn't respond after numerous attempts. I then tried a 2nd filterlinc and it did the same thing.

 

So at this point I'm not confident that the filters aren't part of the issue. This is not a tiny bit of noise either.

[jmed999]

Unplug the refrigerator and see if the problem continues. It sounds like there is something else on that breaker

 

The hard wired SignaLinc is a passive coupler. No signal analysis, no determination of Insteon signal versus noise. No amplification. Noise on leg A is coupled to leg B (or vice versa) when the breaker is On. I do not use and do not like the passive SignaLinc. When things are good it works fine. When Insteon signals reaching the power panel on leg A are at a good amplitude and there is no noise, that signal is passively coupled to the other leg the same way.

 

If there is noise, if the Insteon signal reaching the power panel has a low signal level, it is passively coupled to the other leg at the low signal level and with whatever noise that is present.

 

Active coupling (Access Points) to not couple noise. An Insteon signal reaching the Access Point on leg A, even if at a reduced signal level is repeated on the other leg at full Insteon signal level.

 

There are folks who swear by the passive SignaLinc. I would not have one if they gave them away.

 

The signallinc could be part of my problem. I may remove it and see what happens.

[jmed999]

I removed the signallinc and didn't notice any improvement but obviously it was hurting my system as explained in the earlier post. I'm leaving it off and going to use the PLM and access points and dual band devices for phase coupling.

[Brian H]

If I am remembering correctly. You are in a new home.

Are some of the circuits in the home on Arc fault Breakers. That I believe are now required for some areas of a home.

Any of the circuits on GFI Breakers?

[jmed999]

The home is about 4 years old. I do have some arc and AFCI breakers. I do not see any labeled GFCI though.

[jmed999]

After doing some more testing I can tell you that removing the signallinc has greatly helped at least 1 device and possibly others. Other devices it didn't help at all and actually hurt one device (as far as hops goes).

[jmed999]

If I am remembering correctly. You are in a new home.

Are some of the circuits in the home on Arc fault Breakers. That I believe are now required for some areas of a home.

Any of the circuits on GFI Breakers?

 

I just noticed that 3 of my 4 ARC breakers are giving me problems and those are the ones that really shouldn't be because nothing is plugged in to those outlets. The other one is the one my PLM, ISY, modem and router is plugged into.

[Brian H]

I have seen reports some brands effect X10. It could also be true for Insteon who's power line frequency is not that far away from X10s.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Circuit_Interrupters_And_X10

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fault_ ... networking

 

I am not saying this is a cause of your problems. Just something we may consider as a possible thing to think about.

I have seen reports of them tripping with an Insteon signal but not killing communications.

[jmed999]

Thanks for catching this. The Arc circuits are labeled, "AFCI". Some of the paper labels beside a few other breakers says GFI in hand writing but the breaker itself doesn't specify if it is or is not GFCI.

[jmed999]

Although my overall HA system doesn't seem to be improved after spending several hours troubleshooting today, I feel like I learned a good bit.

 

-For some reason filterlincs can do the exact opposite of their intended function...They can kill your communications.

 

-A Signalinc can be very bad for HA systems that have less than optimum communications.

 

-I consistently thought my refrigerator was a problem but once the signalinc was removed from the refrigerator circuit the refrigerator was no longer an issue. I tested several devices and with the refrigerator plugged in (without a filterlinc) and no signallinc the refrigerator isn't an issue.

 

-My wall oven is a problem. I think it is having the biggest impact on my system.

 

-My flouresent light in my garage are creating a problem but not bad. Not sure how to filter the ballast or if it's worth it.

 

-My problems with one breaker is not due to my outdoor CFLs that I put in recently. I took all the bulbs out and the problems continued.