Weirds problem with ISY/Insteon 2477D, 2476D and X10 LM465

[starwolf73]

Hi Everyone,

 

This year I decide to start converting my house from X10 to In$teon for better reliability system and new feature. I normally do intense research before jumping but for x reason I decide to jump thinking the technology was mature after all these year. My interest in Insteon feature was reliability, speed, brightening from off, the ramping , led indicator, keyboard scene and status feedback.

 

Here what I bought:

7 SwitchLinc 2476D V4.35 (V.37 in ISY)

6 KeypadLinc 2486D V5.1 (V.35 in ISY)

14 Access Point 2443 V2.0 (I KNOW! 2 is enough but I bought kits and it came with 2 AP every time). I remove all them since I install new Dual band switch and test the phase so there a least 1 in different phase.

1 LampLinc 2856D2 (V.38 in ISY)

1 RemoteLinc 2440 (V.00 in ISY)

* Don't understand why version on switch label vs ISY console is different.

 

My system was using the old X10 controller which sometime didn't workout completely and didn't take the full potential of Insteon. Last month I decide to jump and bought:

1 ISY-994IR V3.2.6

1 PLM 2413S V1.6 (V.99 from ISY)

3 Dual Band SwitchLinc V6.5 (V.40 in ISY)

 

Already had a good understand of programming, I start converting my old system into scene and program but weird thing start happening. Still there, Great! Hope you can help the following:

 

1. New 2477D seem to have a bug. If you change the ramping in ISY and try to test on/off directly from the device, it doesn't take effect. To make it apply, you need to physically go and turn on the switch. Now if I try again with ISY on/off ramping work fine. If I put the same device in a scene, the ramping is working fine. All my older switch work fine and don't need I go on physical to turn on to apply the setting. Is it the firmware problem?

 

2. Some 2476D reset by itself (led go up, no led for 1-2 second, led go up again, etc) when I try create scene even if there are not in the scene. Also these 2476Ds doesn't respond to Scenes command but from direct ISY command. Is is bad devices, communication problem or firmware problem?

 

3. LM465 doesn't seem to be support by ISY, I look into the log and X10 command are totally different from ISY controller compare to X10 controller or x10 remote control (who both work fine). Is there a bug with ISY 3.2.6?

 

Have more questions but these are my priority to fix right now.

 

Let me know if you need any log, screenshot or info.

 

Thanks

Starwolf

[LeeG]

I can confirm my 2477D Dual Band SwitchLinc works the same. After changing the Local Ramp Rate it is necessary to manually press the paddle Off or On before change in Local Ramp Rate takes affect for an Insteon Direct command from another Controller. Same applies to a change in the Local On Level.

 

The Status LEDs going out completely is normally an issue with the SwitchLinc Dimmer load. Either type or size of load. Or they are not receiving unswitched 120v power.

 

What are the actual X10 commands being issued by the LM465. There is only one format of X10 basic commands. If the LM465 is issuing Extended X10 commands they are not supported by the SmartLabs 2413 PLM. Can you post a trace of the commands from the LM465.

[jdale]

* Don't understand why version on switch label vs ISY console is different.

 

The label is the hardware version, what ISY reports is the firmware version. They don't necessarily correspond; when the devices are updated sometimes just the firmware is incremented, or just the hardware.

[Brian H]

The PLM is based on an "old" x10 protocol similar to that used by the PCS Smartswitches. These devices used "preset Dim" and standard "Dim" commands.

X10 brand, Leviton, and other manufacturers conform to a "newer" X10 standard that uses "extended code Direct Dim" and standard "Dim" commands.

Most of these devices will not respond to the "preset Dim" commands available on the PLM.

 

LM465s do not understand the Preset Dim command supported by the PLM.

You should be able to use the X10 On,Off,Bright and Dim commands. On any hardware revision LM465.

Preset Dim in the Actions Choices will not work with X10 devices. This is not an ISY firmware problem. Its is a limitation by Smartlabs choice of which X10 protocol to support.

[starwolf73]

1. New 2477D seem to have a bug. If you change the ramping in ISY and try to test on/off directly from the device, it doesn't take effect. To make it apply, you need to physically go and turn on the switch. Now if I try again with ISY on/off ramping work fine. If I put the same device in a scene, the ramping is working fine. All my older switch work fine and don't need I go on physical to turn on to apply the setting. Is it the firmware problem?

 

I can confirm my 2477D Dual Band SwitchLinc works the same. After changing the Local Ramp Rate it is necessary to manually press the paddle Off or On before change in Local Ramp Rate takes affect for an Insteon Direct command from another Controller. Same applies to a change in the Local On Level.

As for 2477D, this is totally not useful and not in Insteon specs. If this is the case should Smarthome do a recall on these? It is definitively a bug. Is there somewhere a thread or summary page we can update with KNOWN bug device/firmware for reference to other?

 

 

2. Some 2476D reset by itself (led go up, no led for 1-2 second, led go up again, etc) when I try create scene even if there are not in the scene. Also these 2476Ds doesn't respond to Scenes command but from direct ISY command. Is is bad devices, communication problem or firmware problem?

 

The Status LEDs going out completely is normally an issue with the SwitchLinc Dimmer load. Either type or size of load. Or they are not receiving unswitched 120v power.

Even some Keypad start resetting by them self if I do a Query of all device, they flash randomly. Most of my load is standard 60-100W bulbs or PAR20 (50W) with load never exceeding 300W. Some place I did change for the new 2477D and it is working fine but with the known bug See point 1. So I suspect 2476D malfunction or firmware version. I even try to change ISY protocol from Automatic to "By device reports" but still make same issues.

 

 

3. LM465 doesn't seem to be support by ISY, I look into the log and X10 command are totally different from ISY controller compare to X10 controller or x10 remote control (who both work fine). Is there a bug with ISY 3.2.6?

 

3. What are the actual X10 commands being issued by the LM465. There is only one format of X10 basic commands. If the LM465 is issuing Extended X10 commands they are not supported by the SmartLabs 2413 PLM. Can you post a trace of the commands from the LM465.

 

The PLM is based on an "old" x10 protocol similar to that used by the PCS Smartswitches. These devices used "preset Dim" and standard "Dim" commands.

X10 brand, Leviton, and other manufacturers conform to a "newer" X10 standard that uses "extended code Direct Dim" and standard "Dim" commands.

Most of these devices will not respond to the "preset Dim" commands available on the PLM.

 

LM465s do not understand the Preset Dim command supported by the PLM.

You should be able to use the X10 On,Off,Bright and Dim commands. On any hardware revision LM465.

Preset Dim in the Actions Choices will not work with X10 devices. This is not an ISY firmware problem. Its is a limitation by Smartlabs choice of which X10 protocol to support.

As for X10 Lamp issue, I found out by removing an AP near the lamp, ISY can now communicate and make 4 command work (On/Off/Dim/Bright).

These are just for information, since I pull the log before I found the solution:

 

Working remote Control, Sent ON command to E15:

Tue 10/09/2012 10:40:37 : [X10-RX ] 02 52 14 00

Tue 10/09/2012 10:40:37 : [ X10] E15

Tue 10/09/2012 10:40:37 : [X10-RX ] 02 52 12 80

Tue 10/09/2012 10:40:37 : [ X10] E15/On (3)

 

Working remote Control, Sent OFF command to E15:

Tue 10/09/2012 10:40:40 : [X10-RX ] 02 52 14 00

Tue 10/09/2012 10:40:40 : [ X10] E15

Tue 10/09/2012 10:40:40 : [X10-RX ] 02 52 13 80

Tue 10/09/2012 10:40:40 : [ X10] E15/Off (11)

 

NOT WORKING from ISY Sent ON command to E15:

Tue 10/09/2012 10:41:25 : [ Time] 10:41:24 1(0)

Tue 10/09/2012 10:41:25 : [ X10] E15

Tue 10/09/2012 10:41:25 : [ X10] E15/On (3)

Tue 10/09/2012 10:41:25 : [X10-RSP ] 02 63 14 00 06

Tue 10/09/2012 10:41:26 : [X10-RSP ] 02 63 12 80 06

 

NOT WORKING from ISY Sent ON command to E15:

Tue 10/09/2012 10:41:34 : [ Time] 10:41:33 1(0)

Tue 10/09/2012 10:41:34 : [X10-RSP ] 02 63 14 00 06

Tue 10/09/2012 10:41:34 : [ X10] E15

Tue 10/09/2012 10:41:34 : [ X10] E15/Off (11)

Tue 10/09/2012 10:41:35 : [X10-RSP ] 02 63 13 80 06

 

 

* Don't understand why version on switch label vs ISY console is different.

 

The label is the hardware version, what ISY reports is the firmware version. They don't necessarily correspond; when the devices are updated sometimes just the firmware is incremented, or just the hardware.

Thanks it is good to know.

 

Best regards

Starwolf

[LeeG]

Thanks for the additional data.

 

†As for 2477D, this is totally not useful and not in Insteon specs. If this is the case should Smarthome do a recall on these? It is definitively a bug. Is there somewhere a thread or summary page we can update with KNOWN bug device/firmware for reference to other?â€

 

That is a discussion to have with Smarthome.

 

Can you reference where in the spec s it indicates the Local On Level and Local Ramp Rate affects are explained beyond their affect on manual paddle operation. I don’t remember seeing when the affect on a Direct command is documented.

 

“Even some Keypad start resetting by them self if I do a Query of all device, they flash randomly. Most of my load is standard 60-100W bulbs or PAR20 (50W) with load never exceeding 300W. Some place I did change for the new 2477D and it is working fine but with the known bug See point 1. So I suspect 2476D malfunction or firmware version. I even try to change ISY protocol from Automatic to "By device reports" but still make same issues.â€

 

The SwitchLinc status LEDs going completely out is not under control of an HA application (ISY in this case). An issue with the hardware or firmware of the SwitchLinc will have to be discussed with the Smarthome Gold Line.

 

Can you expand on what you are seeing with KeypadLincs in relationship to a Query and resetting? What type KeypadLinc (relay or dimmer) and what firmware level?

 

“As for X10 Lamp issue, I found out by removing an AP near the lamp, ISY can now communicate “

 

The Event Trace shows the same command sequence and values for the inbound X10 commands as the outbound commands

 

Each Insteon device will reduce the X10 signal level slightly. If you have an X10 diagnostic tools such as the Monterey Powerline Signal Analyzer it will likely show the X10 signal was better with the AP removed.

[Brian H]

LeeG beat me to a reply.

I would also say it is a marginal X10 signal from the PLM connected to the ISY controller and the LM465s on E15.

 

If you are interested I can post a few links to good X10 troubleshooting and protocol information if you want them.

[LeeG]

starwolf73

 

Something to keep in mind when going through the Smarthome device information such as Quick Start Guides and User Guides, the discussion of On and Off commands are Scene On/Off commands not Direct On/Off commands. With the exception of the PLM Insteon devices do not use Direct device control commands. All the documentation, all the command explanations are how Scene commands work.

 

The I/O Linc is a good example. The I/O Linc Relay has three Momentary modes. The I/O Linc User Guide describes in detail how On and Off commands interact with the Relay in each of the Momentary modes. All of that discussion is relative to Scene On/Off commands. Insteon Direct device control commands (On, Off, Fast On, Fast Off, etc) have completely different Relay responses which are not described at all because Insteon devices never issue Insteon Direct device control commands.

[starwolf73]

Thanks for you quick help!

 

1. As for the 2477D, I definitely will report the bug but though I can also help others if there was a reference sheet about KNOWN bug. I waste lot of time thinking it was a communication or program problem. This is my understanding and I did test it to prove my theory. I wrote a small program to light ON 5 secs and light OFF 5 seconds and manually change "On Level" and "Ramp Rate" from ISY on 2477D, 2476D & 2486D. Here the result:

 

2477D:

Ramp Rate change will have no effect and stay the same until you press ONCE the rocker. If you program something and try to test it, make sure you press all your 2477D everytime you change the settings the local settings.

Local On Level have no effect with Command ON in Programming mode but does with ON button in device page.

 

2476D,2486D:

Ramp Rate change is effective right away.

Local On Level have no effect with Command ON in Programming mode but does with ON button in device page.

 

In my test, I assume the ON button on the device page was the same ON command in programming. Also found out the by using Fade up/down command, the device current state in ISY is not update.

 

* For "the specs" I was referring to all others switch behavior, sorry for the confusion.

 

 

2. For the light going wild, I can't explain for now but I post in case someone had similar issue. Only happen when there is reprogramming or activity on the Insteon network and light are on. If light is off, it will stay off. I didn't have any weird behavior before with my X10 Controller using these lights. I understand I was not using protocol Insteon and features. But I'm trying to troubleshoot if it relate to bad firmware, or batch of devices I received or a mixed with ISY release 3.2.6. Also it is not only status LEDs but loads. Easiest way to replicate it by running the Query for all.

 

 

3. X10 is Solve for now. Thanks!

 

Regards,

Eric