Newbie Question - Keypads

[drunkwithpower]

Can someone explain to me how the combo switch/dimmer keypads work (6 and 8 button)? What does it mean that they have a dimmer? Can I dim with all the buttons or just one? How does it work? Sorry if this is a stupid question but I can't seem to find any good documentation.

[johnstewart]

I'm no expert; I just recently got one myself.

 

However, the behaviour I've seen on my 8-button Keypadlincs is that, indeed, each can be a dimmer.

 

Once on, press and hold and it will dim. Press and hold again, and it will brighten.

[Vyrolan]

A KPL has two kinds of buttons "load-controlling" and "primary" On a 6-button KPL, the big top and bottom buttons are load-controlling, the rest are secondary. On an 8-button KPL, the top left button is load-controlling and the rest are secondary.

 

Now, the load-controlling buttons actually control the load connected to the switch...whatever light or other device you have connected to the Red wire on the KPL. The KPL being a dimmer or not only changes that control of the load. The other buttons (the secondary ones) are just extra buttons to do whatever you want with...and they are just used as generic Insteon controllers. If you make them a controller of another device that is a dimmer (like a Lamplinc dimmer), then they will act like a dimmer. If you make them a controller of a non-dimming device (like a Switchlinc relay), then they will act as just on/off.

 

I hope that makes sense...

[oberkc]

Whether or not a fixture or lamp can be dimmed is dependent entirely upon the insteon device which actually powers it. A Keypad can be purchased in either dimmer or relay version. The consequence of this is only related to the load which is directly powered by the keypad (connected to the red, load wire from the keypad) via the "primary" button on the keypad.

 

In addition, ALL keypad buttons can be virtual controllers of other insteon devices. That is, ANY keypad button can virtually control another insteon device such as a lamplinc, outletlinc, switchlinc, dimmerlinc, another keypad, etc. On a keypad, buttons other than the "primary" button can act ONLY as virtual controllers, since they have no ability to supply power to a fixture.

 

So, if you have a lamp that is plugged into a dimmable lamplinc, and use a keypad button to control the dimmable lamplinc, then, yes, that keypad button controls a dimmable load, regardless of whether the keypad, itself, has an on-board dimmer capability.

 

In my house, I have many insteon switches that power NO load directly, having nothing connected to the load wire, instead acting only as virtual controllers of other insteon devices. Whether or not they can dim a fixture as a virtual controller is completely independent of the dimming capability of that switch.

[drunkwithpower]

Whether or not a fixture or lamp can be dimmed is dependent entirely upon the insteon device which actually powers it. A Keypad can be purchased in either dimmer or relay version. The consequence of this is only related to the load which is directly powered by the keypad (connected to the red, load wire from the keypad) via the "primary" button on the keypad.

 

In addition, ALL keypad buttons can be virtual controllers of other insteon devices. That is, ANY keypad button can virtually control another insteon device such as a lamplinc, outletlinc, switchlinc, dimmerlinc, another keypad, etc. On a keypad, buttons other than the "primary" button can act ONLY as virtual controllers, since they have no ability to supply power to a fixture.

 

So, if you have a lamp that is plugged into a dimmable lamplinc, and use a keypad button to control the dimmable lamplinc, then, yes, that keypad button controls a dimmable load, regardless of whether the keypad, itself, has an on-board dimmer capability.

 

In my house, I have many insteon switches that power NO load directly, having nothing connected to the load wire, instead acting only as virtual controllers of other insteon devices. Whether or not they can dim a fixture as a virtual controller is completely independent of the dimming capability of that switch.

 

Is the "primary" button always the same, ie. button 1? Anyway, for purposes of keeping things simple it seems it might be easier just to have an Insteon switch/dimmer for each switch in the house, and then install keypads in the original switch locations. For instance, I actually have 8 switches in the entry hall. I would like to reroute all of the switch electrical runs to a closet and then install a keypad in the original entry hall location. Would you recommend installing 2 8-button keypads to allow for both single function buttons (turn lights on and off) and extra scene buttons (ambience lighting, dimming, etc...)? I am very new to this and am trying to figure out what to do before the builder gets to the wiring phase.

 

Thanks for everyone's replies!

[LeeG]

Something to think about. If the primary house wiring is done as you suggest it does not allow installing normal mechanical switches in the future if that would be advantageous when selling the house. Not everyone considers automation a plus.

 

I would insure that all switch locations have unswitched power (line and neutral). No running power to a fixture with a simple pair running to the switch.

[drunkwithpower]

Something to think about. If the primary house wiring is done as you suggest it does not allow installing normal mechanical switches in the future if that would be advantageous when selling the house. Not everyone considers automation a plus.

 

I would insure that all switch locations have unswitched power (line and neutral). No running power to a fixture with a simple pair running to the switch.

 

So in essence you might be inclined to run the switches as normal and just replace them with Insteon devices? I may have to think about that as obviously that is the easiest option. Of course, I can;t really hide anything that way either. Hmmm...

[LeeG]

Ask a real estate agent if Insteon devices would be a plus or minus in a future sale. If the wiring is done such that only Insteon or some other remote control lighting devices can be used there is no fall back plan. There are many electricians who cannot spell Insteon let alone maintain an Insteon installation for a future buyer.

 

Sorry, I did not answer the last question. I would NEVER wire a house that required DIY devices to control it.

[oberkc]

Is the "primary" button always the same, ie. button 1?

 

Yes. Always the same. Button A, or 1, depending on which version.

 

So in essence you might be inclined to run the switches as normal and just replace them with Insteon devices?

 

That would be my inclination, also. If not that, at least have a fallback plan to be able to remove your insteon should that prove necessary or desirable.

[drunkwithpower]

So I guess my next dilemma would be to figure out where to put keypads, that is if I even need them. I wanted to replace the 8 separate switches in the entry hall with a couple of 8 key keypads, but if I choose to leave the normal switch locations alone and just replace them with managed switches and dimmers (1 to 1), then wouldn't it look kinda cluttered to add an 8key keypad to the mix? This is way tougher than I thought to plan all this stuff out. I wonder how many people access scenes only through their tablets and phones instead of keypads? I guess i could add a couple of keypads in the main traffic areas (family room and kitchen) for scenes if needed. This is something I obviously need to figure out before the the electrical is run. Any thoughts anyone?

[tracknut]

I'm in a similar situation as you, building a house and trying to put together home automation plans just before the electrician starts wiring. My current plan is certainly to still have the house "work" if all the HA stuff seizes up during Y3K or some other disaster. As far as keypads, I'm planning on using a couple in the house (front door & garage), and will fit them to switches that are wired to switch a light. So rather than having the electrician wire a generic unused box as a switch, he'll do the normal "wire a foyer switch to a chandelier" at the door. Once replaced with a KPL, the KPL can still be used to switch on/off the chandelier, as well as controlling that light via the ISY for day/night or other uses. I can then use the other KPL buttons for other scenes and such. I am minimizing as much as possible the "8 light switches in a row) syndrome (for example I may eliminate some switches direct wired to electrical outlets in favor of doing that via HA later if desired), while still retaining normal usability, and am happy not to have anything even close to that!

 

The vast majority of my automation wish-list will be accomplished with no extra wiring from the electrician, though I will have him install a bridge in the electrical panel and a whole house surge protector.

 

There are some other items on the more esoteric HA list, mostly dealing with low voltage powered things, but I'm hopeful most of them can travel via RF (thermostats, sprinklers, contact switches on doors, etc). I currently am not planning on using inline-linc type devices to control some of the unsupported things like radiant floor heating, because it seems like pushing my luck.

 

Good luck with your project! Keep in mind this stuff is designed to be retrofitted into existing homes, not to have homes built around it.

 

Dave

[oberkc]

I wonder how many people access scenes only through their tablets and phones instead of keypads? I guess i could add a couple of keypads in the main traffic areas (family room and kitchen) for scenes if needed

I retrofit an existing house, but have done as you suggest: add keypads at key locations for major scene control. Like you, I do not like the the appearance of mixing keypads with single switches, so each keypad gets its own box (generally mounted higher than the single control boxes). I also have a couple of keypads in desktop enclosures for some locations.

 

Additionally, i access lighting control from a couple of android tablets throughout the house.

 

Mostly, however, I rely on automation for scene control. Lights automatically come on key times, mornings, dusk, dawn, weekends, upon arrival, when doors are opened, upon motion sensing, etc... This is, in my mind, the more omportant part of automation: not having to use light switches.

 

Also, don't forget that singleminsteon switches can be controllers of scenes. Perhaps it makes sense in your situation to program one of your single switches as a controller? Also, don't forget to include outlet and table/floor lamp control. A single switch for this can be very convenient, depending on the quantity of fixtures you end up with. I have a friend with so many table lamps that I am sure it takes 10 minutes each night to turn them all off.