ellesshoo Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 I've got 3 dual band switchlincs on one side of a room and a single dual band device on the other and I've been having intermittent issues among all of them and especially the one opposite the other 3. Sometimes I can't communicate with a switch in the same double gang box as another switch. I can't help but think smarthome is run like a mom & pop cottage industry b/c it's almost impossible to believe that between powerline and rf these things can't reliably communicate. Do they have the engineering chops of a big time or even up and coming consumer electronics company? What could possibly be wrong with my setup? Even if there is something wrong how can they expect to break through the enthusiast only market and into mainstream if it's this finicky?
arw01 Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 What does a level three detail show for hops? Are you getting 0 remaining a lot? But one would think across the room they would work great. I have a motion sensor that is flaky to an access point 6 feet away..
Brian H Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 Fancy metal switch plate covers can kill almost all the RF signals from a Dual Band device. Power line noise can be a problem. RF devices like baby monitors and cordless phones in the 900MHz band can be a problem. Have you done the four set button tap communications routine to verify communications with the SwitchLinc across the room? Controlling the incorrect load with a dimmer type switch can be a problem. No nondimmable CFL and LED Bulbs or low voltage loads. I would try the Event Viewer in Level 3 as suggested and see what it shows.
johnnyt Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 They don't help if you have metal junction box (required by code in Canada.) I think it would be nice if the antenna was a little wire that could be fed out of a hole in the box so it could dangle in the wall a little further away from metal parts. Personally the only time I would have chosen to purchase a dual band switch (if I didn't have metal boxes) is if I had to communicate with a motion sensor near the switch that was maybe a little far from my access points. Do you have any/enough access points? I don't think you can replace the need for access points with dual band devices. Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
hagak Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 Having a none grounded bare wire exiting a junction box to dangle probably won't pass most safety requirements.
johnnyt Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 Having a none grounded bare wire exiting a junction box to dangle probably won't pass most safety requirements.Doesn't have to be bare (and no doubt can't be). My garage door openers both have an insulated antenna wire hanging down from them
oberkc Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 Having a none grounded bare wire exiting a junction box to dangle probably won't pass most safety requirements. Nor the WAF. The more I read, the more I become convinced that a few access points, strategically place, remains a valuable part of any insteon installation.
ellesshoo Posted January 25, 2013 Author Posted January 25, 2013 Not home now so I can't look at level 3 diagnostics right now but I can assure you all that all boxes are plastic, all face plates are plastic, and all switches are controlling normal incandescent loads. Only one switch is a dimmer, all others are just relay switch lincs.
Vyrolan Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 If you have a lot of noisy devices and/or signal suckers, the powerline communication can be rendered completely unreliable. The devices don't even have to be in the same room...some device somewhere else in your house could be pumping out lots of noise and disrupting Insteon powerline communications. As for the RF, even without metal boxes, they can be extremely situational as to how they are mounted, what's near by, what else is in the wall, etc. I, for one, have metal boxes yet still have very good RF communication between my dual band devices (as shown by the 4-tap test), but other people struggle when the devices have direct line of sight across short distances. Such is the nature of RF in my opinion... RF is very finicky and there's not much you can do about the problems. Powerline can be finicky, but there is a very clear course of action with the filters that can give you nearly perfect reliability. How big is the room in question? How far is it "across the room"? What else is in the room as far as furniture, appliances, lights, etc, etc? When you say "can't communicate" or "can't communicate with a switch in the same double gang box as another switch", do you mean you have the two switches linked and the responder doesn't change when you hit the controller? Does it never work or just sometimes work or what? All you say is "can't communicate" and we have no idea what you're actually trying to accomplish... You ask "what could possibly be wrong with my setup" but don't tell us anything about how you actually have it setup... If you had spent as much time describing your situation and the problems you're seeing as you did slinging insults at Smarthome, we could probably be more helpful. Countless others have little to no problems with the devices.
johnnyt Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 Having a none grounded bare wire exiting a junction box to dangle probably won't pass most safety requirements.Nor the WAF. unless you have a hole in your wall, you wouldn't see a wire hanging out of the back of a junction box...
hagak Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 Having a none grounded bare wire exiting a junction box to dangle probably won't pass most safety requirements.Doesn't have to be bare (and no doubt can't be). My garage door openers both have an insulated antenna wire hanging down from them The wire exiting the garage door opener is not exiting a high voltage junction box.
johnnyt Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 I, for one, have metal boxes yet still have very good RF communication between my dual band devices (as shown by the 4-tap test) the 4-tap test? for a dual band device? I have a new dual band KPL relay (they only sell dual band kpl relays now so I got DB whether I wanted to pay for it or not) so after reading the comment I went looking on the smarthome wiki but could not find reference to the 4-tap test for it. That said the manual is for the pre-dual band model so maybe it's just missing that info. How do I test my dual band KPL relay's ability to talk to the network via RF instead of powerline? Certainly I've done the 4-tap test with my access points, although I thought in that case it was for testing that they are on separate phases, not in RF range. It turns out my kpl and the whole circuit it's on is in a marginal area for powerline insteon signals and having one of my access points 3 feet from it (on the wall behind with my metal junction box between the two) didn't help. see viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10513&p=79841&hilit=less+than+feet+away+from+access+point#p79841. You'll see veteran poster LeeG makes a few comments that might help you too.
johnnyt Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 Having a none grounded bare wire exiting a junction box to dangle probably won't pass most safety requirements.Doesn't have to be bare (and no doubt can't be). My garage door openers both have an insulated antenna wire hanging down from themThe wire exiting the garage door opener is not exiting a high voltage junction box.wouldn't insulated make a difference? I'm not an electrician and I don't know all the code details but I would think the fuse would blow long before an insulated antenna wire hanging from a metal box that's grounded would be live. But maybe that's one of the differences between metal and plastic boxes, and hence maybe a code requirement where plastic boxes are permitted...
johnnyt Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 Just thinking about this again. Could one open up a dual band KPL and add a piece of (insulated) wire to extend the antenna all the way out of the junction box? I seem to recall from something I heard or read eons ago that antenna length needs to be a multiple of the wavelength for best result. Provided one adds a length that results in a multiple of the length of the current antenna, would that work? I'm hoping some RF experts in the crowd can either validate this idea or save me from voiding my warranty for nothing. Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
dimensionzero Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 The only thing I see with this, is that the antenna on the back of the KPL's are 2 wire. The wires from the control board are soldered to a circular antenna on the back of the plastic enclosure. Not sure how you would go about extending this...
gviliunas Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 Actually, I believe that the "circular device" connected to the PCB with red/black wires is the beeper. greg
arw01 Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 The antenna could just be a trace on the board. Might explain why they don't get too far.
johnnyt Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 I thought the antenna was the small spring like metal wire near the top at the back. Sorry I don't have a photo. If not, what is that thing? Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
Brian H Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 Adding a wire to the internal antenna could detune the transmitter in the module. Void its FCC acceptance. Module uses a power line derived power supply and there is a very good chance the antenna wire would be AC hot to any external safety ground.
Brian H Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 There are internal photos of the Insteon Dual band Devices in the FCC Database. If the module in the photo. Has a daughter board marked Insteon RF Modem. The antenna is the coiled piece of solid wire.
jeff000 Posted February 17, 2013 Posted February 17, 2013 They don't help if you have metal junction box (required by code in Canada.) For the record, a metal box is not required by the Canadian Electrical Code. Nor is it required in any local amendments that I know about. You hardly ever see the plastic boxes used because they are double the cost of the metal and really save no time.
gatchel Posted February 17, 2013 Posted February 17, 2013 Actually, I believe that the "circular device" connected to the PCB with red/black wires is the beeper. greg Yes. It is a piezo element.
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