4-Way wiring help

[Bill Morrow]

OK, so I had my 4-way switch wired with X-10 previously and decided to upgraded it to Insteon, 2876DB.

 

Box 1 has 2-wire power (BW) and a 3-wire cable (RWB)

Box 2 has 1 3-wire cable (RWB)

Box 3 has 2 3-wire cables (RWB) and a 2-wire power cable (BW) - output to the outlet below

 

X10 was wired as follows:

 

Box 1 - Momentary switch wired to Traveler and Blacks, Neutrals wired together

Box 2 - All three wires connected to Leviton 6383

Box 3 - Momentary switch wired to Travelers and Blacks, Neutrals wired together

 

Insteon is wired as follows:

 

Box 1 - Switch Black to Blacks, Switch White to Neutrals, Travelers not connected

Box 2 - Switch Black to Black, Switch White to White, Switch Red to Red

Box 3 - Switch Black to Blacks, Switch White to Neutrals, Travelers not connected

 

None of the switches have power ATM.

 

I think I get why I'm screwed at Switch 2 (no power), but I don't get why Switch 1 has no power? I suspect the Leviton was drawing power through the light.

 

I'll dig out the multi-meter to figure out switch one, but how can I wire Switch 2?

[Bill Morrow]

My bad, Switch 1 and Switch 3 do have power as I suspected. So how do I fix Switch 2? Replace it with a manual 3 way and leave it turned on?

[Brian H]

You may want to look at the Full Users Manual.

It shows how you use the Travelers to get the power to each switch location.

http://wiki.smarthome.com/index.php?title=2876DB_Manual

There are two manuals. Above and below hardware revision 5.0.

[oberkc]

I assume box 1 includes supply (2-conductor), box two has the 3-conductor cable from box 1 and box 3, plus the switch power to the fixture, and box three is just the end of the three-conductor cable. I am hoping you can confirm these assumptions on site.

 

If so, in box 1, connect supply black (hot) to 3-conductor black and to switch black. connect supply white to 3-conductor white and switch white. Cap red from switch. Cap 3-conductor red.

 

In box 2, you now have supply provided by the black and white from the 3-conductor cable from box 1. Connect this to the other 3-conductor black and white, as well as to the switch black and white. Connect 2-conductor white to the other whites. Connect 2-conductor black to switch red. Cap remaining red conductor.

 

In box 3, you now have supply provided by black and white conductor from box 2. Connect switch black and white. Cap red from switch and cable.

 

ALL switches must be insteon if you want control from all three locations. All bare grounds should be tied together in each box. Again, confirm the wiring on site. Best to use a volt meter.

[Bill Morrow]

I assume box 1 includes supply (2-conductor), box two has the 3-conductor cable from box 1 and box 3, plus the switch power to the fixture, and box three is just the end of the three-conductor cable. I am hoping you can confirm these assumptions on site.

 

If so, in box 1, connect supply black (hot) to 3-conductor black and to switch black. connect supply white to 3-conductor white and switch white. Cap red from switch. Cap 3-conductor red.

 

In box 2, you now have supply provided by the black and white from the 3-conductor cable from box 1. Connect this to the other 3-conductor black and white, as well as to the switch black and white. Connect 2-conductor white to the other whites. Connect 2-conductor black to switch red. Cap remaining red conductor.

 

In box 3, you now have supply provided by black and white conductor from box 2. Connect switch black and white. Cap red from switch and cable.

 

ALL switches must be insteon if you want control from all three locations. All bare grounds should be tied together in each box. Again, confirm the wiring on site. Best to use a volt meter.

 

Thanks,

 

I think we're close on this:

 

I think Box 1 is accurate. I have to confirm that the 2-wire here is power, but I'm 99% on this.

 

Box 2 has me confused, as the 2-wire comes in from the bottom of the box and not the ceiling as I would have expected.

 

I've confirmed in Box 3 that Black is Line, Red is Neutral and White is?

 

 

All three switches have power now, but none control the light.

[oberkc]

as the 2-wire comes in from the bottom of the box and not the ceiling as I would have expected.

I believe that you can assume one of your 2-wire cables is supply, and the other goes to the fixture. If you believe (you should measure this to be sure) box one includes supply, then the cable in box 2 goes to the fixture. If the routing of the 2-wire into the bottom of the box makes you suspect that it does not go to fixture, this makes it even more important to measure things. Does the 2-wire in box 1 come into the top or bottom of the box?

 

I think we're close on this:

 

In box 1, you state that "travelers" (plural) are not connected. Which are the travelers?

 

In box 2, you state that switch red is to red. Which one (are there not two?) Regardless, this would be incorrect. If, as I suspect, box two has the feed to the fixture, then switch red should be connected to the black from the 2-conductor cable.

 

I've confirmed in Box 3 that Black is Line, Red is Neutral and White is?

 

How did you confirm this? As I understand your wiring description, red would NOT be neutral...white would be.

 

Your lighting circuit does not work because it is not wired correctly. None control the light, because you have none connected to the light. I suggest removing everything and starting over. Expose all the wires, none touching another. Temporarily energize the circuit and measure which have power. Identify where the remaining wires go. Diagram it on paper. ONce you understand the wiring, reconnect everything, keeping black as supply, white as neutral, using red where necessary.

[Bill Morrow]

I've confirmed that the 2-wire conductor in Box 2 goes to the outlet with my Ohm meter.

 

So I'm pretty sure I have this setup

 

http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/infor ... ption3.htm

 

 

where switch 2 is between switch 1 and the light. So the 3-wire from switch 2 goes to the light and continues on to switch 3.

[Bill Morrow]

as the 2-wire comes in from the bottom of the box and not the ceiling as I would have expected.

I believe that you can assume one of your 2-wire cables is supply, and the other goes to the fixture. If you believe (you should measure this to be sure) box one includes supply, then the cable in box 2 goes to the fixture. If the routing of the 2-wire into the bottom of the box makes you suspect that it does not go to fixture, this makes it even more important to measure things. Does the 2-wire in box 1 come into the top or bottom of the box?

 

I think we're close on this:

 

In box 1, you state that "travelers" (plural) are not connected. Which are the travelers?

 

In box 2, you state that switch red is to red. Which one (are there not two?) Regardless, this would be incorrect. If, as I suspect, box two has the feed to the fixture, then switch red should be connected to the black from the 2-conductor cable.

 

I've confirmed in Box 3 that Black is Line, Red is Neutral and White is?

 

How did you confirm this? As I understand your wiring description, red would NOT be neutral...white would be.

 

Your lighting circuit does not work because it is not wired correctly. None control the light, because you have none connected to the light. I suggest removing everything and starting over. Expose all the wires, none touching another. Temporarily energize the circuit and measure which have power. Identify where the remaining wires go. Diagram it on paper. ONce you understand the wiring, reconnect everything, keeping black as supply, white as neutral, using red where necessary.

 

Yeah, I'm working on figuring out what goes where now. See msg below for what I know so far.

[oberkc]

I've confirmed that the 2-wire conductor in Box 2 goes to the outlet with my Ohm meter.

 

So I'm pretty sure I have this setup

 

http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/infor ... ption3.htm

 

 

where switch 2 is between switch 1 and the light. So the 3-wire from switch 2 goes to the light and continues on to switch 3.

 

I don't believe this is your setup. The 2-conductor cable in box 2 runs to the fixture. I don't believe you travellers route through the fixture box.

[Bill Morrow]

I've confirmed that the 2-wire conductor in Box 2 goes to the outlet with my Ohm meter.

 

So I'm pretty sure I have this setup

 

http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/infor ... ption3.htm

 

 

where switch 2 is between switch 1 and the light. So the 3-wire from switch 2 goes to the light and continues on to switch 3.

 

I don't believe this is your setup. The 2-conductor cable in box 2 runs to the fixture. I don't believe you travellers route through the fixture box.

 

Wire to the outlet is copper, everything else is aluminum, it definitely goes to the outlet and was added later.

[Bill Morrow]

Box1:

Line - 2WB-in

Neutral - 2WW-in

 

3WB-out to 3WB in Box 2 Line

3WW-out to 3WW in Box 2 Neutral

3WR-out to 3WR in Box 2 Traveler

 

Box 2:

3WB-in from 3WB out Box 1 Line

3WW-in from 3WW out Box 1 Neutral

3WR-in from 3WR out Box 2 1 Traveler

 

3WB-out to 3WB in Box 3 Line?

3WW-out to 3WR in Box 3 ???

3WR-out to 3WW in Box 2 ???

 

Box 2 to 3 connections were confirmed with an Ohm Meter and cable with all other wires disconnected. I had thought that Box2 3WW out along with Box3 3WR in but this brings no joy.

 

Box3:

3WB-in from 3WB in Box 2 Line?

3WW-in from 3WR in Box 2 ???

3WR-in from 3WW in Box 2 ???

 

 

All boxes have power, but load is not controlled.

[oberkc]

I had missed the outlet mentioned in your original post. Was the outlet controlled by the switches, also. This strikes me as quite strange. My only theory is that, as you say, someone added the outlet, but only after adding the X-10 devices. I have trouble understanding how one could power an outlet from a four-way switch box location that does not have power.

 

Given this better understanding, considering the possibility that the fixture is, indeed, wired between one of the switches, did you take your measurements (impedence) with the fixture and bulbs in place? Have you removed the fixture to confirm the existence of two, 3-conductor cables?

[Bill Morrow]

Thanks for your help oberkc, don't give up now.

 

Yes the switches control a ceiling fixture, which is inaccessible due to it's height and weight.

 

I'm pretty sure the outlet is a red herring, but my next step is to disconnect it to make sure it's not part of the equation. I just hate playing with the aluminum wiring more than necessary as it's so brittle.

 

I was hoping my Ohm meter would help to identify which of the 3 conductor wires were connected to the load, but the results were inconclusive. I guess I'll get an extension cord and plug in the wires from box 3 until I see the light.

[oberkc]

REmove all the bulbs from the ceiling fixture. If the fixture is between any of your switches, I would expect that you will be able to detect this because your restance measurement would go from short to open on some of your 3-conductor wires.

 

I agree that the outlet is sure an interesting addition to your wiring. I don't believe it could be there if this were "normal" three (and four-way) way switches.

[Bill Morrow]

Thanks,

 

I'll try removing the bulbs next that next and testing continuity again.

 

I disconnected all wires from boxes two and three and still had power at box one, so the outlet is not providing power.

 

Interestingly, B2B, W2W @ Box 1, B2B, W2W @ Box 2 and B2Line, W2Load, R2Neutral @ Box 3 (Switch) provides power to Red (NC) at Box 2 when the switch @ 3 is on. But no light of course, So this is not the Load as I expected.

 

Update:

 

The Load is between 3WW out Box 2 and 3WR in Box 3.

[oberkc]

The Load is between 3WW out Box 2 and 3WR in Box 3.

 

OK. That is the key finding. One of these needs to be connected to red output (switched power) of one (does not matter) of the switches. The other needs to be connected to a neutral.

 

It is best if you can identify the proper conductor for hot. Normally, in a fixture, hot should be connected to the little tab in the bottom of the light bulb socket. If you can identify which of the wires (either 3WW or 3WR) feeds this little tab, then connect that wire to the switched output of one of your insteon switches. The other end should be tied into your neutral bundle.

 

This is a code requirement, I understand. The purpose is to avoid energizing the shell of the sockets and minimize the risk of sjock when changing bulbs.

[Bill Morrow]

Thanks, I didn't see your reply above before I wired it up. The dimmer ended up in box 3, because it has more room.

 

I'm going to have to replace box 2 at some point as it's not really big enough for all of the connectors. The neutral bundle (5 wires) really s/b split into two bundles and pig-tailed. The box has two large spikes holding it to the stud, replacing these with screws would likely give me enough room without going to a deep box.

 

Next step is linking them all, but I've seen a few threads outlining this procedure.

 

Thanks again for your help.