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No I think that requiring the ADMIN Panel to mess things up is short sighted. MOBILINC can do it or having a Program not run at startup or a change in an Integer variable that makes the logic true but does not trigger execution or any number of other ways it can happen. The point is when it happens (And you have allowed ways to make it happen) you do not provide a way to detect that the program is in that state Just because the Programs logic is TRUE does not mean it is ACTIVE and if it is TRUE and IDLE nothing will ever happen with the program so stack it up to just another one of the reasons why ISY is not usable by the common man! Cannot and will not recommend it to customers with this kind of illogical thinking!

Saving the Program from ADMIN will also make the PROGRAM TRUE and IDLE even if the IF logic contains all STATE VARIABLES that are true and yet you cannot tell the difference programatically from a program in that TRUE and IDLE condition from one that is TRUE and ACTIVE. The TRUE and ACTIVE will eventually complete its WAIT and execute its logic that comes after the WAIT. The TRUE and IDLE program will never do anything. From The Program logic checking TRUE you cannot distinguish between the two! If you restart the program because it is TRUE it will always be TRUE so you will constantly restart it because both situations are always TRUE. If you don't restart the TRUE and IDLE program it will never do anything more even though it should! I cannot believe you do not see through this simple logic?

I know I am beating this horse to death but I want to try and explain my request one more time. The point is not so much in how a program gets to be in an ACTIVE or IDLE state but rather in the inability of an ISY Program to be able to detect that state. A Program can be TRUE and ACTIVE or TRUE and IDLE but all we can currently detect in an ISY program is if it is TRUE. It Could be TRUE and ACTIVE or it could be TRUE and IDLE we cannot tell (Even though you see this in the Summary and in the Coloring of the ADMIN CONSOLE Icons).. If it is TRUE and ACTIVE there is some expectation that the program can change its state after its WAIT or sometime during its execution Can make a change that will make something else happen (i.e. making itself False or turning a Device or Variable on or off, etc). A Program can also be FALSE and ACTIVE and FALSE and IDLE but all we can currently only detect in an ISY program is if it is FALSE. It could be FALSE and ACTIVE meaning that it is still changing variables, and device states or it could be FALSE and IDLE meaning it is doing nothing. All we can tell with an ISY program is that it is FALSE. There are several ways I know of that can put a program in a ACTIVE or IDLE state weather or not it is TRUE or FALSE which is why we need a way to programattically detect if it is ACTIVE or IDLE in addition to detecting if it is TRUE or FALSE. #1 You can STOP the program either from within the ISY Console or Programatically or from Outside of ISY using MOBILINC or other similar products. (We do not just live in an ISY world any longer), This could be done with REST commands from NETWORK or MOBILINC or many other means other than an ISY program. #2 You could have the program set to DISABLE RUN AT STARTUP at which point the program could be TRUE and IDLE or FALSE and IDLE but it could also be TRUE AND ACTIVE. #3 you could RUN THEN even if a program is FALSE so it would still report FALSE even though it is ACTIVE, This can also be done from MOBILINC or other external to the ISY sources. #4 as in my earlier examples you could set FOLDER logic to not run in a certain circumstance and then to allow RUN again leaving the PROGRAMS in it TRUE but IDLE instead of TRUE and ACTIVE. #5 a Change to an INTEGER Host Variable may allow the Program Logic to be TRUE or FALSE but not trigger the program to RUN or STOP and thus the program could be ACTIVE or IDLE and TRUE or FALSE. Checking TRUE or FALSE does not even begin to support even the things the ISY allows you to do. Just because a PROGRAM is TRUE does not mean it is ACTIVE and because it is TRUE also means it could be IDLE and it could be FALSE and ACTIVE or FALSE and IDLE. Again there are many ways to get programs into the ACTIVE and IDLE states I am discussing and to me those ways are not that important. The important thing is that they CAN and DO get into those states. My Concern is that the ISY Programs do not allow me to detect those states and yet those states make a tremendous amount of difference when trying to control things with Automation via an ISY Program. After all Home AUTOMATION is the key word here. If I use ISY to see if a PROGRAM is TRUE I cannot tell if it is ACTIVE or IDLE. If I RUN IF or RUN THEN and the program is TRUE and IDLE then no problem the Program runs and becomes ACTIVE but it I RUN IF or RUN THEN and the PROGRAM is already ACTIVE then I restart its logic and WAIT conditions. IF it is TRUE and ACTIVE I have some expectation that it will have further State Changes but if it is TRUE and IDLE then I could waut forever and it may never change its state, I cannot tell which means there is NO AUTOMATION! Same is TRUE if a PROGRAMS IF logic is FALSE and someone using MOBILINC or other methods runs THEN. All I can tell is that the PROGRAM is FALSE even though it is ACTIVE and making potential STATE changes. If I run another Program that would conflict with it if it were active based on it being FALSE who knows what logic conflicts could and DO occur. This is why TRUE and FALSE only tell a small part of the STORY. ACTIVE and IDLE is the other more important part of the LOGIC, and is definately something we need to be able to detect from ISY PROGRAM logic. I could send program examples but my programs are not really all that complex. It has been mentioned that you can determine ACTIVE or IDLE state with a Variable but the answer is NO YOU CANNOT. If my simple program sets a Variable to say it is ACTIVE and then WAITS for five minutes and someone STOPS the PROGRAM using MOBILINC then the VARIABLE would say it is ACTIVE when in fact it is NOT. Also if the Variable never gets set and IF LOGIC is FALSE yet someone RUNS THEN then the VARIABLE is active but the PROGRAM is FALSE. If the program is set to Not run at Startup even though its IF is TRUE You can SEE these ACTIVE and IDLE states from the ADMIN CONSOLE SUMMARY however you CANNOT detect them programatically and we need to be able to do that. I am tired of having LIGHTS stay on because I had them turn on and WAIT for five minutes before turning them off only to have the PROGRAM STOP for variious reasons. If I programatically (TRY TO AUTOMATE) and check the program to see if it is TRUE then the answer is YES IT IS TRUE but IDLE which I cannot tell. If I do nothing the Light will stay on forever. If I run it again based on it being TRUE then the its wait will never be reached since it will still be TRUE and the program checking TRUE would put it in loop running over and over again only being able to tell that it is TRUE. Again TRUE and IDLE is very different state than TRUE and ACTIVE. Also if I check in a program that sets lights on to check state of a program that turns lights off and the Program Check that the program is FALSE but someone has RUN THEN then the program could be reporting FALSE even though it is ACTIVE which can cause all sorts of issues. This may not be a problem for a customer that only has a few devices and Programs but when you have 800-900 programs and 300 Devices you need the ability to AUTOMATE things programatically. This is why they call it HOME AUTOMATION. When you cannot use that AUTOMATION program to tell you if the proram is ACTIVE or IDLE and only report TRUE or FALSE of its IF logic then you have a real problem trying to AUTOMATE anything at all. This may not be a problem for some low end users of INSTEON and ISY but to me this is a Major FLAW in Program Automation that desperately needs to be corrected.

Consider a second program that checks the first program to see if it is TRUE. In the example above the program 1 would report as TRUE but in fact the second program would never know that the first program will never complete its task because it is idle. All it can do is wait on the first program because it thinks it is true. If it knew it were idle even though it was true it could take actions to restart the first program so that it will eventually complete. just knowing it is TRUE would not alloow it to restart the first since that would restart the wait in the first program repeatedly. Only knowing if it is Active or IDLE in addittion to TRUE vs false allows this to be managed and variables will not work since Folders as I showed in my example or a PROGEAM STOP could place the program in a TRUE but IDLE condition. Also NOt running at startup even though it is TRUE. Several ways to make a program be in that state just no way to detect that state. Thanks Charles

One more thing In the example from my last post once you re allow programs to run in the FOLDER the program variable would show as ACTIVE and the Program would show as TRUE however the program is IDLE not ACTIVE even though it is TRUE. Because I can only detect TRUE or FALSE I now have a dilemma. If I do nothing the WAIT condition for the program will never get reached since the program is IDLE, however if I rerun the program based on only knowing it is TRUE then I would never hit the end of the wait since it would remain TRUE and the WAIT would be restarted each time I rerun it, so knowing it is TRUE or FALSE does not help me at all in this situation. Only knowing if it is ACTIVE or IDLE helps me to react properly to this condition. Also there are other times when a program can be in a TRUE but IDLE condition other than making it happen with FOLDER logic but this is just one example and we do need a way to detect this condition and program around it. Active vs IDLE in addittion to TRUE vs FALSE. Thanks for listening! Charles Seiler

Yes you would think that if the active variable is x in the above example that the program is active, but that is just not true. As an example place the program in a FOLDER and Run it so that its WAIT is actively waiting and the Active Variable is set to show it is active. Then place a condition on the FOLDER that is not TRUE. Then remove the FOLDER condition. This is just one way to make this happen but what you now have is a program that is TRUE and the active variable says it is ACTIVE but in fact the WAIT condition is no longer active, so the Program is TRUE but is not active. We need to be able to detect this condition so that we can programatically detect it and rerun the program in order to reactivate it's WAIT condition. In other words this program is Active vs IDLE instead of TRUE vs FALSE. Big Difference!

Using a Variable will not work. The Program is in the middle if a WAIT, and I want it to finish its WAIT(ACTIVE) and do the things that come after the wait. If it were TRUE and not in a WAIT (IDLE) then I would want to possible retrigger the program. If it is TRUE and in a WAIT I would not want to because I would only retrigger the wait effectively putting things in a loop which obviously happens often with ISY. I could program around it by having two programs, one to do the Wait and subsequent processes and one to be TRUE, but that is just another issue with ISY for people like be that have hundreds of devices. You run out of programs if you create too many. The problem is programs often end up in this status of TRUE but IDLE and for various reasons. Others are TRUE but ACTIVE. If it is TRUE but IDLE it will never do anything more unless it gets triggered again so Logic dictates that I would need to have a program check it for being TRUE and trigger it again. Unfortunately there are also programs that are TRUE and ACTIVE. In this case the program is still running (Active) so I do not want to check it for TRUE and retrigger because it would never end. Its wait would always get retriggered. The problem is there is no way currently to tell the difference. The only way we have now is to check for it being TRUE so both types of situations would get retriggered causing the endless WAIT loop. If we could tell the difference between the two We could Retrigger when it is IDLE and TRUE and not retrigger when it is ACTIVE and TRUE. Basically TRUE and FALSE is totally inadequate and does not represent the accurate status of the program. ACTIVE and IDLE along with TRUE and FALSE does.

I guess what I am asking for is really an enhancement. There is a lot of difference between a Program that is TRUE but ACTIVE and one that is TRUE and IDLE. The TRUE and ACTIVE program still has THEN Logic that is still pending execution (Possible after a WAIT timeout) thus even if it is not triggered again things can still change during the completion of its THEN logic that could change things. The TRUE and IDLE program has completed its then logic, so nothing more will happen unless it is triggered again. To me it is extremely important to be able to tell the difference between the two, This has been the cause of a lot of the frustrations with ISY programming that could be eliminated by simply being able to detect that difference in the STATUS of a program. TRUE and FALSE is insufficient and misleading. ACTIVE and IDLE is a much better indication of what is happening with the Program's STATUS. Being able to say "If PROGRAM XYZ IS ACTIVE" or IF PROGRAM XYZ is IDLE is a much more informational, meaningful and logical thing to know than is knowing if it is TRUE or FALSE. They really have two distinct meanings. Also I know you can detect the difference between the two states because the Program is half green when TRUE but IDLE and it is FULL GREEN when TRUE but ACTIVE. All I am asking for as an enhancement to the programming interface to have a programattic method of being able to determine that difference in the programs state.

Just to clarify, if the Program is TRUE and ACTIVE I do not want to do anything because its Then Logic including the WAIT is still active, but if it is TRUE and INACTIVE I want to be able to restart the program by running its IF or THEN logic.

They are all State Variables. I used the example of being able to create this condition by setting a false Folder Condition and then making the folder true again, but in fact this happens at times when I don't do anything at the folder level. I generally do not use folder conditions, so I may have confused you by mentioning folders. I only did so because I know setting a folder false and then making it true can put a program in this state. On all of my devices I set a Wait Timer to only allow the light to be on for a specific wait time before I set it off again. If motion is detected I re trigger the program which restarts the If and thus the wait and so the program continues to leave the light on for as long as the program wait is running. Once the wait expires it sets state variables to make another program turn the light off. Occasionally I find a light that stays on even though it should have gone off, and the program is usually in this status. It is True but Idle. Because this is the only program that turns the light on the program had to have run and I have verified that its last run time did in fact make it run, but somehow it quit running its wait even though it is in a true status. I cannot just check to see if the program is TRUE and then run its IF logic because other programs run and wait (SOLID GREEN) and would also report as TRUE. If I ran the IF on those they would never get to the end of their WAIT. The only programs I need to run IF on are those that are TRUE but IDLE. Yes these are triggered by STATE Variables or by Control from a SWITCH, and YES the program was running its WAIT at one time but just stopped which put it in this state of IDLE and TRUE instead of ACTIVE and TRUE. I need a way to detect the difference between those two states so that I can only restart the ones that go IDLE and TRUE. .

Hello Team, I am still having trouble determining how to programatically detect a Program who's IF logic is TRUE but is not actively Running when it should be. In the attached file screenshot you will see Program "Hall HAL Monitor 1CON" the program is true as indicated by its Color Status, however its WAIT condition is not active therefore the program will never perform the actions after the WAIT should have expired. In other words it is IDLE but TRUE if you look at it in Summary. I need a way to programmatically detect that condition. When that occurs I want to run IF logic so that it becomes ACTIVE and TRUE. This situation happens when a Folder is set FALSE and then TRUE. It detects that the logic is TRUE but there is nothing to trigger it to run. I do not want all of the programs in the folder to run if they TRUE because if they are really ACTIVE and TRUE and I run IF it will restart their WAIT timers, but if they are in IDLE but TRUE status I do want them to run and honor the (In this example 45 second Wait) before setting the Variables to 0. I can check if the Program is TRUE but that alone does not help me since other programs ,may also be TRUE but ACTIVE and I do not want to run IF again for those since it would restart their WAIT timers. TRUE but IDLE is the condition I really need to check for. Can this be done???? Also as a second question if I upgrade to V5.0 can I still fall back to V4.3.10 by restoring back or is that a go forward only release? Thanks Charles Seiler

Hello Team, I have a question on using Folder Conditions. If you have a FOLDER that contains Programs whose conditions are TRUE but the condition on the FOLDER is FALSE, then the program correctly does not execute. If you then set the FOLDER Condition to TRUE and the Program IF Condition is still TRUE, then is there a way to then detect that condition and make the program RUN without having to manually run them? I know I can manually run them but I want them to start running automatically as soon as the FOLDER Condition is TRUE again, If there is not q way, that would be a Great Enhancement! This would allow you to not have programs not starting at Reboot and allow you to start them with a Delayed start of the FOLDER condition. This would be very helpful to all ISY users when debugging and fighting against code that loops. There are many other uses for this functionality too! I know there are other ways around this but this seems like it would be a no brainer to implement and would be extremely helpful. Thanks Charles Seiler

Hello Team, Perhaps this is working as designed, but I have to ask anyway. I had several Indoor and Outdoor Lamplinc's that I use for Christmas Lights. When Christmas is over I pack them away along with the lights until next year. Instead of Deleting the Devices and Programs I Disable the Devices from the Main Panel, and they all show with the Red Disabled Circle. Then I set the Program Folder at the Folder level to not allow the Folder Programs to Run until 12/01/2015 thru 01/04/2016 (Next Seasons Dates). I do not disable the individual Programs in that folder I simply just tell the Folder to not allow its programs to run until next season. No other Folders have Programs that access these devices according to the Find search. When I then Log In to the ISY ADMIN I immediately still get a "Cannot Communicate with the Device" Error. I would have assumed that disabling the device and the programs that use them would have prevented any attempts by the ISY to communicate with them? Should that not be True? Interestingly Enough only one of five devices get this failure message. It has the Red Disabled Circle however prior to disabling it it had a Red Exclamation Mark since my wife unplugged it prior to me disabling it. Does that have something to do with it? Just curious on any input on this to better my understanding of what happens when devices are disabled. Thanks Charles Seiler

Hello, I know how to change a keypadlinc from 6 to 8 buttons by doing a Factory Reset and holding the A/H Buttons, but how do you change it back to a 6 button? Does anyone know how to do that?

Thanks again guys. Again, I still prefer ISY to HUB but it would be nice to at least see the ID of the device even if the Start Linking cannot Add it. Link Sensor will add it but only if you know the address to add. These Device Labels and even a Sharpie Pen do not last so its easy to lose the ID especially on a MS that may be Outdoors in the Sun. If it cannot be done then I understand but if there is a way to Auto Detect the Device ID of a MS that would be a great feature for the ISY to support. Thanks Charles Seiler

Hello All, I was able to find the Insteon Address of the MS, unfortunately I had to use an INSTEON HUB to do so. The HUB Auto Identified the MS for me. I Still do not like the HUB compared to the ISY as there is no real comparison between what the ISY can do vs a HUB, but this is the first thing I have been able to successfully use the HUB for that I could not seem to accomplish with the ISY. Thanks Charles Seiler

Good news is I think I can read the first two address groups of the address, its the last two bytes I cannot see, so I am probably only about X'FF' away from finding it if I am lucky? 256 possibilities I believe?

Start Linking does not allow you to Link a Motion Sensor (At least I have never been able to?) . You have to specify Link Sensor instead, and that does not Autolink so that does not work. Like I said Start Linking works for Switches, etc when you press and hold the switch for 5 seconds it auto discovers but since a MS is not allowed to be added under Start linking nothing is Auto Detected. Nothing I try seems to work to determine the address of the MS.

I have an older Motion Sensor that was originally tied to a failing ISY994 that I can no longer connect to.. Unfortunately while I do have Backups of that device, I did not save a Topology Listing. When I went to add the Sensor to my second ISY device I have found that the Insteon Address has faded and is unreadable. Is there any way you are aware of to determine the Insteon Address of the Motion Sensor? I don't want to have to restore one of the backups and then restore back just to find out the address of the device. With Switches, etc you can Start Linking and hold the Set Button and it will auto identify, but I don't seem to find any Auto Identification technique for a Sensor? Help! Thanks Charles Seiler

Thanks Michel, As always you always provide the greatest Support! I did as you asked on removing the MSD card and the outcome is the same. I took the MSD card OUT, and rebooted. Same result as with it in, the Red Light flickers a couple of times at power on but then stays solidly RED. All I have is the Blue Power Light solid, The Red Error Light Solid, and on the Back of the Unit I have a Blue Light on the VISHAY Antenna card that comes on solid for 5-6 seconds, then blinks 5 times and then goes off solid. Same result as with the MSD in place. I went ahead and opened a Trouble Ticket as you suggested. Thanks for your help! Charles Seiler

Hello, I have two ISY994I PRO devices and 2 2314S PLM's both of which had been working great. Today on One of the two I have a solid red error light and it will no longer connect to the Router. I restored a backup of the failing ISY to the second ISY PLM that was still working and it and its PLM are now working OK. I am now trying to get the failing ISY to work again. I have checked and replaced Cables both to the Network and PLM, I have formatted the Micro SD card and I have performed a Factory Reset on both the ISY and PLM. I still get this SOLID error Light. I suspect something is severely broken, but I am not sure how to go about determining what that is? The ERROR light is not blinking but it will flash a couple of times after I press and hold Reset button and then release. The Two network lights by the Network Cable are both green. There is a Power light but nothing on TX/RX. Is there a way to determine if the ISY needs replacing or if its just the PLM? Any help is appreciated. Also I have a question on the Upgrades I have purchased for this ISY such as X10 Module, IR Module, Network Module and ZWAVE module. If I have to replace the ISY can these modules be transferred to the new ISY? Thanks Charles Seiler

Never Mind. I was looking at the wrong ISY and I see the date is 10/01 not 10/02. My Mistake!

Another incident of Time related Issues. In the attached File you will see a screenshot of my Variables screen with the Time clearly showing as 10/02/2013 01:28:23 PM. I have not rebooted or done any time changes prior to this and yet the last Update time on the variables clearly shows a Last Change Date over an hour into the future. I would think this might be related to Daylight Savings differences except that the time is more than 1 hour off. Any Thoughts? I see similar issues to this quite often. I am at 4.05 Version Level. Thanks Charles Seiler

Thanks Michel for all the help with Network Resources Rest Interface. I seem to have it working now as far as using Network Resources to set values of Variables on the second ISY, and also issuing DON/DOF/Beep etc. directly to devices and Scenes on the second ISY so that's progress, and I am learning which is always a great thing. Just a couple of additional questions if I may? Q#1 Is it possible to have ISY#1 send a rest/vars/set Command to set a variable on ISY#2 to the value of another variable on ISY#2? If so how would this be coded? Q#2 Similarly is it possible to have ISY#1 send a rest/vars/set command to set a variable on ISY#2 to the value of a variable on ISY#1? Thus far I do this by encoding the variables value in the rest command as a literal value but I wasn't sure how to code it to use a variable name from the ISY#1 in the command being sent to ISY#2. Q#3 Could you also provide an example of how to code the rest/vars/set command to set the value to a string Value? Thanks Again for your help. You saved me as an ISY User and allowed me to move forward with several projects I am in the midst of. Charles Seiler

Hello, There must be some DOC on how to setup and use the Network Resources to POST a REST command from one ISY to another? No matter what I do I cannot seem to get it to work, and I still cannot find the Error Messages Documented anywhere. Is this a Security Issue? I have a Self Signed Server CA for Both ISY's. Is there additional Windows or Router Setup needed? Both ISY's are on the same local Router both using PORT 80. I am trying to set up a Network Resource to POST from ISY#1 to ISY#2 a /REST/X10/C12/3 command. POST / HTTP/1.1 Host: 192.168.1.245:80 User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 Connection: Close Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded Content-Length: 15 Authorization: Basic XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX== /rest/X10/C12/3 When I Test this I get a TCP client request Failed (Net Module Rule 1:715) I tried with and without Basic Authorization in the request. (XX'd Out the BASE64 in the above.) I would not think this would be all that complicated. I am already using REST commands to send REST commands from Camera Devices to the ISY and that works great. I would think I should be able to send a REST command from one ISY to another just as easily? Any Ideas what this error is, and what I need to do to get this working? Is this a Security Error or is something else wrong? Is this a SSL CA Certificate Issue and if so what do I need to fix this? This is critical to my continued use of ISY. Thanks Charles Seiler