westom

With only one main panel protector, then an incoming surge will go completely to earth via that path. The other one not necessary. But since these things are so inexpensive, then one in each would simply mean even better conductors to earth. Simply better. Sub-panel protectors must have an additional protector circuit between neutral and ground. So that would make it more expensive. It must also shunt to ground. But sub-panel neutral and ground are separate. A main panel protector has neutral and ground already connected together.. That extra protector circuit in a sub-panel protector connects neutral to ground.

Numbers define all this. Accurately noted is that the parameter called time must also be included. An 18 AWG (lamp cord) wire will conduct a surge current that exceeds 50,000 amps. That same wire is rated to safely conduct 10 amps constantly. A 20 amp (12 AWG wire) is sized to conduct 21 100 watt incandescent bulbs simultaneously. If all bulbs power on at the same time, it must and does conduct 150 amps during a power on period - safely. Just one of many reasons why 20 amp circuits use wire so thick. OTA TV antennas must be earthed by a 6 AWG hardwire. That means it should be able to conduct something around 200,000 amps during a surge. Obviously it need not since a 100,000 amp surge is quite rare; most surges are only 20,000 amps. Numbers that another should learn before posting denials, myths, and lies. National Electrical Code is only about protecting human life. It says nothing about protecting appliances. For example, a ground hardwire from breaker box can go over a foundation and down to an earthing electrode. That provides human safety as defined by the NEC. And it compromises protection. That wire would be too long. It is probably bundled with other non-grounding wires. Those sharp bends over the foundation further increase impedance. To upgrade for appliance protection means a hardwire goes through a foundation and down to electrodes. Many feet shorter decreases impedance; increases protection. Eliminating sharp bends decreases impedance. Electricians are only taught what must connect to what to provide human protection. Appliance protection means an electrician must also exceed what code requires. But many electricians are never taught these electrical principles. Are only taught and required to know what code demands. Code does not require any protection on AC mains (in the breaker box or meter pan). Effective protectors are rated at least 50,000 amps. Since a protector must not fail even after many to direct lightning strikes. That means a connection to earth ground must be low impedance (ie less than 10 feet, no splices, not inside metallic conduit,etc - as was repeatedly stated previously). And, of course, it cannot be 22 AWG. That protector's wire to conduct 50,000 amps is typically a 12 AWG wire. Wire gauge is irrelevant to this topic. Because all wires are already thick enough. As stated so many times previously, impedance is about wire length, sharp bends, and other parameters. The most critical item that requires a homeowner's attention is a single point earth ground. Since that (not a protector) and the connection to it defines protection during each surge. A final point. Voltage is not the relevant parameter. Surges are a current source. That means that current will flow no matter what. Voltage exists when something foolishly tries to 'block' or 'absorb' a surge - such as a plug-in protector. Voltage increases as necessary so that the current will flow. Or when wire impedance is high due to being too long, sharp bends, splices, etc. A 'whole house' protector connected less than 10 feet to better earthing electrodes means that current (ie 20,000 amps) creates a tiny voltage. Sharp bends, a wire too long, etc create increased voltages; decreased protection. Effective protection is about the current and associated conductor impedance. Informed consumers worry about that less than 10 foot hardwire connection. And the quality of earthing electrodes. As noted previously, if the OP has further problems, then an investigation looks for the human mistake. That starts here with inspection of earthing electrodes and associated low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connections.

You can argue only to argue. Or admit that is exactly what the OP asked. He posted: That is the topic. Protection from storms. Recommendations that will help or that are exposed as only making things worse. And how a best solution can fail if not properly installed (ie impedance). What have you posted? Denials. And not one honest fact. This thread ended until you posted fables and technical lies that contradict over 100 years of well proven science. Somehow that is relevant to what the OP asked? You even deny what virtually every professional organization says. I did not write that stuff. Professionals do. Denied so as to not apologize for posting misinformation. For some unknown reason, you believe that AC electric wires are 22 AWG. And did not even know why profit center protectors create fires. Please limit your answers to what the OP asked; without including your feelings. Somehow a ground wire is 5 times thinner than what the NEC requires? Even the classic lie about induces surges (that is off topic) was posted. This discussion ended had you not posted misinformation. Induces surges being a classic example of off topic as well a mythical fabrication. You do not even apologized for that 22 AWG mistake - only argue - and have yet to answer what the OP asked:

It is taught in elementary school science. Moldy bread creates maggots. Therefore observation alone proves that moldy bread breeds life. Something was harmed by lightning. But no direct lightning strike was observed. So observation proves that induces surges did that damage. Both are examples of junk science; conclusions only invented by observation. The idea that something is damaged by induced surges means classic junk science reasoning is at play. Basic science concepts (ie a hypothesis combined with experimental evidence) are essential to have an honest conclusion. Then induced surge myths are not posted (believed). Adding facts and perspective (numbers) means junk science (ie induced surges) is an urban myths. Numbers (ie using E-M Field equations) and experimental evidence both expose that myth. Better is to remain unsaid if one does not even understand the significance of impedance (ie less than 10 feet). And that AC electricity is not provided by 22 AWG wires. Professionals discuss what does effective protection. A low impedance connection to single point earth ground: www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comments/7e0zmv/besides_a_surge_protector_how_else_do_you_protect/dq8qkdf/ BTW, all that is only a 'secondary' protection layer. Nobody is asking to learn about the 'primary' protection layer. Many want to argue rather than learn.

Protection from surges is protection from the many sources including linemen errors, tree rodents, stray cars, utility switching, and wind. Lightning is simply the typical example that must not cause damage ... if using effective protection. Effective means connected harmlessly to earth by an earth ground wire that all structures are required to have. And that wire must be low impedance. Meaning that wire may need to be upgraded to exceed what the National Electrical Code (NEC) requires. Nobody said anything about 22 AWG. AC wires (the most common source of surges) is not that tiny. 22 AWG is completely irrelevant to this entire discussion. It is not even permitted according to the NEC. Surge protectors are for transients that are potentially destructive. That means lightning. Protectors that avert lightning damage mean spending about $1 per protected appliance. Not $25 or $100 that advertising and subjective statements promote. Those tiny joule and expensive plug-in boxes also need lightning protection. Using the less expensive solution provided by other companies so well known for their integrity. Impedance is defined by many factors. Reading with greater care would have discovered examples. Less than 10 feet. No sharp bends. Hardwire not inside metallic conduit. No splices. Please read before criticizing. Every foot shorter decreases impedance; increases protection. Some facilities that want best protection have no hardwire connection to earth ground. A connection is made directly to the earthing electrodes - a zero foot connection to make impedance even lower. The OP asked about surge protection. Effective protectors come with numbers that define protection from direct lighting strikes. No expensive plug-in protector does. IEEE defines properly earthed 'whole house' protection as doing 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection. Plug-in protectors should not be used if that 'whole house' solution does not exist. Since this can happens to protectors that do not claim to protect from lightning or the other similar and destructive surges: Induced surges? Lightning struck only 30 feet from a long wire antenna. Antennas are designed to maximize the effect of E-M fields. So the antenna lead saw thousands of volts Then an NE2 neon glow lamp was connected to that antenna lead. A resulting less than 1 milliamp current caused thousands of volts to drop to maybe 60. One is expected to learn numbers associated with induce surges rather than repeat popular and inaccurate fears. Induced surges are made irrelevant by protection already required to be in every appliance. In another example, a direct lightning strike hit a building's lightning rod. So maybe 20,00 amps were flowing to earth. Just four feet away from that lightning rod's hardwire to earth was an IBM PC. It did not even blink. No other office equipment suffered any interruption. That would be a maximum induced surge. E-M fields are only destructive when one makes assumptions without first doing research. First indication that claims exist without first doing research? No numbers. Numbers expose denials as unsubstantiated urban myths. Not justified by any research.

Reality is repeated when one keeps posting misinformation. Zero electrical knowledge is repeatedly identified. As demonstrated by no professional citations, no numbers, barely any electrical concepts, and only subjective statements mostly based in hearsay and justified by insults. You do not even know what impedance is. Somehow millimeter gaps in isolation transformers will block what three miles of sky cannot. You did not even know that TV cable and telephone have and are required to install best protection. Your misinformation is disingenuous. Please stop deceiving others with repeated fallacious insults. Eaton (like all protectors) is effective only if it makes a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground. True today as it was over 100 years ago. If attention does not focus on earth ground, then an Eaton will do nothing for fire alarms. Those facts are relevant. Discourteous slander and subjective misinformation are not. You do not even know why plug-in protectors can even make surge damage easier if a 'whole house' solution is missing. If you don't like it, then stop reading it and stop posting. Or simply answer the relevant question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Please do it, for once, without any more personal cheapshots. Please go away if you have nothing useful to contribute. Essential to make that Eaton effective is its earth ground - the 'secondary' protection layer. And inspection of the other ('primary') protection layer.

Some day all AC electricity will be delivered by fiber? And Tesla generators will provide electrical power as RF energy. Or maybe lamps and vacuum cleaners will be powered by nuclear batteries as predicted in the 1950s.

So the protector you are discussing has four connections. Because in a sub-panel, the neutral and earth ground are separate. For this protector to be effective, it must make a low impedance connection to what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. That is always what effective protectors do. So what part has you confused? It does effective protection when that sub-panel makes a low impedance connection to earth ground electrode. Does it?

Just to be clear. No protector does protection. That Eaton is useful when it connects low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to the same earth ground that also connects to the telephone 'whole house' protector, TV cable hardwire, and any other incoming wire. Kudos for installing a product from a responsible company. But protection is only defined by earth ground. How to make that protection better? Upgrade (if necessary) that earth ground and its connection. Also inspect your 'primary' protection layer. That also defined by an earth ground that is too often compromised.

Please quote the relevant instruction. For which protector?

Telco's earth ground did not create damage. His missing earth ground made damage possible. If both ends of an interconnecting wire are not connected low impedance to single point earth ground, then a strike to one building can be a direct strike to electronics in another. So many professional citations demonstrate this. Even the legendary Polyphaser App Notes demonstrated it. First, a surge is a current source. That means its voltage will increase as necessary to blow through anything that foolishly tries to block it - (ie isolation transformer). Protection is always about connecting that destructive energy to earth ground BEFORE it can enter a building. Then that transient does not hunt for earth ground destructively inside a building, It need not blow through galvanic isolation that already exists inside electronics. Second, isolation transformers do not 'block' longitudinal mode currents. Destructive transients are longitudinal. Third, all telco connected facilities (that have no damage) do effective earthing. Today and over 100 years ago. Somehow a millimeters separation inside isolation transformers will block what three miles of sky cannot? Numbers demonstrate why isolation transformers and other magic 'blocking' boxes are ineffective. lilyoyo1 has yet to cite an electrical concept nor even one technical number. Disparaging remarks contribute nothing honest. Somehow millimeter gaps between wires will block what three miles of sky cannot. Really? Which 'whole house' protector is best? One that will conduct at least 50,000 amps. That defines protector life expectancy. And one with the low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth. That defines protection during each surge.

Your telco is a $multi-million computer with copper wires connected to every other building in town. As a result, it suffers about 100 surges with each storm. And no damage. Why? Because best protection is defined by a single point earth ground that every incoming copper wire connects to. If any telco CO suffers damage, it is a major news story. Properly earthed protection is that well proven. Same applies to those 3 panels. A 'whole house' protector is ineffective if not connected low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earth ground. IOW that protector in a subpanel (that has no earth ground) will do little if any protection. Because protection is done by its earth ground that exists in the main panel.

Plenty of urban myths are widely believed. Including conclusions from shotgunning, wasting of troops by leaders who have a political agenda and no military grasp, some ridiculous need to constantly replace thermal compound, the purpose of any organization is it product (not profits), and other misinformation only based in an automatic belief from hearsay. One 'fundamental' point in all such discussions: if they don't say 'why'' and with numbers, then it is best treated as a lie. An important point that was made repeatedly and that others agree. Earth ground defines all protection. To have equipotential means a protector (or a hardwire) must connect low impedance to 'single point earth ground'. Any incoming conductors not connected to that single point ground means equipotential has been violated. That ground (not any protector or surge blocker) defines protection. That ground requires most attention because it (and not any protector) defines the protection layer. Many see a protector; not what is more important - earth ground. Repeatedly mentioned with a specific intent; above was only about a 'secondary' protection layer. Nobody yet asked about another critically important item: a 'primary' protection layer. Surge protection is only one example. How misinformation is so easily promoted and believed really is the point. After all, most everyone once knew smoking cigarettes increased health. Widely believed myths about protection also demonstrate this same 'fundamental' problem. Some are so attached to myths rather than learn how to separate myths from facts. Surge protection is a classic example. Vietnam was another.

Concept was demonstrated by Ben Franklin. Lightning is an electrical connection from charges in a cloud (ie three miles up) to charges in earth (ie four miles distant). A shortest connection is down to earth and then four miles to those charges. Lightning took a best path to earth through a conductive church steeple. But wood is not a very good conductor. So that maybe 20,000 amps created a high voltage. Church steeple damaged. Franklin connected a lightning rod to earth ground. Now a best connection to earth was that connection. So that maybe 20,000 amps created a near zero voltage. Nothing damaged. Lightning striking utility wires many blocks down the street takes a best path to earth through conductive appliances. But appliances are not very good conductors. So that 20,000 amps will increase voltage as necessary to blow through appliances. Appliances damaged. Facilities all over the world connect a 'whole house protector low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth ground. Now a best connection to earth is that connection. So that maybe 20,000 amps creates a near zero voltage. Nothing damaged. Robust protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. Demonstrated by those four paragraphs: lightning rod and 'whole house' protector do similar. One to protect a structure. Other to protect appliances. Both do something better when that earth ground is upgraded / enhanced. A conductive connection to earth means a destructive current is not flowing destructively through / inside a building or appliances. In both cases, that hundreds of thousands of joules dissipates harmlessly outside. Protection is never about excess energy. Protection is about how an electric current connects a cloud to earthborne charges. If that path is not anywhere inside a building, then nothing (not even a protector) is damaged. An effective protector is only a connecting device. Lightning can be 20,000 amps. So a 'whole house' protector must be at least 50,000 amps. Those are routinely sold in big box hardware stores and electrical supply houses. Manufactured by a long list of other companies well known for their integrity. And that protector must have a dedicated hardwire to connect to your single point earth ground. A homeowner provides, inspects, and must maintain his earth ground. Earthing is not only essential. It must be installed as demonstrated by this utility's good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions at: https://www.duke-energy.com/energy-education/power-quality/tech-tips then select Tech Tip 8. The art of earthing is defined by factors such as neighborhood history over the past few decades. And conductivity of earth. For example, sand is less conductive. So more earth electrodes are necessary. For most homeowners, two eight+ foot copper clad rods do quite fine. Plenty of case studies from many professionals can be provided to demonstrate this. Above defines a well proven strategy for effective protection that also typically costs less money. And has been routine in facilities that cannot have damage even over 100 years ago. Also inspect your 'primary' protection layer. Franklin demonstrated the concept. Protection is always about hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorbed outside in earth. Then a current from cloud to distant charges is not taking paths destructively through / inside the house. Ignore another who is only reciting what he was told to believe. We did this stuff routinely. Even learned from a few disastrous mistakes. We learned by even replacing destroyed semiconductors - to trace the path of a surge. Protectors never do protection. And can sometimes make damage easier. Effective protectors connect destructive transients to earth. A better protector means it absorbs less joules. Also inspect your 'primary' protection layer. Currents connected to earth via that layer need not be earthed by your 'secondary' protection layer or destructively via appliances. That layer is also defined by its earth ground.

Informed professionals have been saying this for over 100 years. If he had anything useful to contributet, he would have. larryllix accurately described problems created by electricians who are not taught these basic electrical concepts. Protectors are only effective when connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground. He also notes, "These units are beneficial in probably 99% of the cases though." An IEEE Standard says it will do 99.5% to 99.9% protection. And then says: The Steve Jenkins article is also informative. But he makes a few mistakes. No protector does protection. A protector is only a connecting device to what does the protection - earth ground. Incoming TV cable, for example, needs no protector. A hardwire makes that low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to what does protection. Type 3 protectors cannot be located where a low impedance ground connection exists. But a protector is effective when connected low impedance to earth. The 'whole house' solution is only a 'secondary' protection layer. Only earth ground defines each protection layer. A plug-in protector has no earth ground - is not a layer of protection. A homeowner should also inspect his 'primary' protection layer. Steve Jenkins may not; which explains those burned protectors. Any protector that fails did no effective protection. Since lightning is typically 20,000 amps, then a minimal 'whole house' protector must be 50,000 amps. Those burned protectors (if I remember the numbers) were undersized - therefore ineffective. He also did not know that other incoming utilities (ie telephone) already installed protection for free. Protection that is effective if he provides, inspects, and maintains what makes protectors effective - earth ground electrodes. Apparently misunderstood - best protection for ground and neutral wires (as larryllix explains) is that low impedance hardwire that connects direct to earth ground electrodes. No protector needed for those wires that must already have best protection. Effective protection always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? If outside (the 'whole house' solution), then everything inside remains undamaged. Then best protection, already inside every appliance, is not overwhelmed. An honest recommendation includes numbers (ie 50,000 amps, hundreds of thousands of joule, less than 10 feet, multiple electrodes 8 feet or deeper). lilyoyo1 did not even know 'whole house' solution can only be installed at any time. The most critical item may need be corrected / upgraded as larryllix explains. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Earth ground defines each layer of protection. Protectors without that earth ground are ineffective.