Techman Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 I noticed that when you set the on LED on level to max then lower the LED off level it also reduces the on level brightness. Is this a bug or by design?
LeeG Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 Not sure what the backlight On/Off levels are being set to but note that the KPL maintains a logical difference of 8 between the On and Off levels to insure the user can visually tell the difference between a button that is On and a button that is Off.
Techman Posted August 25, 2013 Author Posted August 25, 2013 In this case when you set the LED off level to a low or off level it also reduces the maximum brightness of the on level. The KPL is mounted in a table top enclosure situated in a room with a high ambient light level. I'm using it to show which motion sensors have been activated and would like the LEDs to be either maximum brightness or off.
LeeG Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 That combination is not possible. When the On level is at max brightness the Off level is 8 levels lower. EDIT: also note that the KPL Relay Backlight level is set as a single Backlight % On value. The Off level is controlled by the device itself. Setting the Backlight level by a single value actually makes more sense than having two values (On and Off) which do not operate independently.
Xathros Posted August 26, 2013 Posted August 26, 2013 LeeG- Are you sure? The way it seems to me is that the KPL (dimmer at least) forces a MINIMUM of 8 between Off and On LED Levels IF and Only IF the Off value is greater than 0. The drop down in the ISY seems to back that up as seen here: That said, I'm not at home right now and can't actually test to verify that 15/0 works as I believe but as you can see from my screenshot, I have a value of 3/0 set for my bedroom KPL after dark and that works just fine. EDIT: And in addition, I just noticed something that might help with some of the garage door trigger reverse removal issues that we see. Notice the first block of 8 options for the LED level appear to allow the reversal of the LED state (LED On when the button is Off and LED Off when the button is On) I will have to test that tonight if I get a free moment. -Xathros
LeeG Posted August 26, 2013 Posted August 26, 2013 Xathros I'll have to run a series of tests again to see what is actually happening. I don't think the LED On/Off will be reversed. UDI is simply listing all the number combinations that can physically be set in the Backlight byte. The first 4 bits control the Off level with 0-7 as the valid range. The last 4 bits control the On level with 0-15 as the valid range. The KPL maintains a visual difference between Off and On regardless of what values are set in the Backlight byte making many of the combinations of Off/On values meaningless. EDIT: an Off value of 0 along with On combinations less than the 8 differential provide the default backlight level because the backlight byte is set to what is equivalent to the factory reset default 00 setting. All of this is from memory.
Xathros Posted August 26, 2013 Posted August 26, 2013 Thanks LeeG. That makes sense. Is the factory default effectively 8/0? I'll have to play with this a bit more. It really seems like 3/0 is dimmer but I haven't actually watched at the time when they dim to see if it changes. -Xathros
LeeG Posted August 26, 2013 Posted August 26, 2013 Don't remember a 0/0 versus a 0/8 test result. (Off/On, I think in terms of bits in the byte rather than pulldown) I think the factory reset level is brighter than a 0/3, which I think is the same as 0/7. (again off/on values) I'm leaving to run some errands this afternoon. Will run some tests tonight when I get back.
LeeG Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 Results of LED Brightness tests. All x/y numbers are Off/On values 0/1 thru 0/15 – LEDs are physically Off when button is Off; On level increases incrementally 1/0 thru 1/15 – LEDs are dim when button is Off, no change to Off brightness over On level increases; On level increases incrementally 2/0 thru 2/15 – Off level brightness increased from 1/15 to 2/0, no change to Off brightness over On level increases; On level increases incrementally 3/0 thru 3/15 – Off level brightness increased from 2/15 to 3/0, no change to Off brightness over On level increases; On level increases incrementally 4/0 thru 4/15 – Off level brightness increased from 3/15 to 4/0, no change to Off brightness over On level increases; On level increases incrementally 5/0 thru 5/15 – Off level brightness increased from 4/15 to 5/0, no change to Off brightness over On level increases; On level increases incrementally 6/0 thru 6/15 – Off level brightness increased from 5/15 to 6/0, no change to Off brightness over On level increases; On level increases incrementally 7/0 thru 7/15 – Off level brightness increased from 6/15 to 7/0, no change to Off brightness over On level increases; On level increases incrementally Increases in On level were very small done 1 increment at a time. The brighter the On level the harder to see incremental increases by 1. At times found it necessary to compare differences of more than 1. Observations made looking at LEDs directly with caps removed. These results are very different from what I remember testing on a lower KPL firmware. Will repeat the tests on an older KPL.
Xathros Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 Thanks Lee I not quite sure that I understand what you mean in tests 2&3 when you say "no change over On level increases; On level increases incrementally" I'm guessing this means that in these tests, there is no change to the On level brightness until you have a separation greater than 8 between the off and on levels. Or am I misunderstanding? -Xathros
LeeG Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 Xathros Sorry for the confusing post. I meant there was no change to the Off level brightness as the On level number increased. This is quite contrary to the test results done on an earlier KPL last year. I've updated the post with the rest of the test results.
Xathros Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 So then it seems that SH dropped the forced 8 difference at somepoint in the later firmwares. All of my KPLD's are V41 and this backs up what I have found with my limited batch of settings. Did you happen to test the 0 On Level with a Off Level greater than 0? Xathros
LeeG Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 Yes. The tests were done sequentially. The Off/On combination went from 0/15 to 1/0 to 1/1 to 1/2 ...., 1/15 to 2/0 to 2/1 to 2/2 and so on. The change in On level from 1/15 to 2/0 produced an increase in the On level brightness as did the change from 2/15 to 3/0 and so on. The change in the Off level brightness increased as the Off level number was increased. What did not happen was an increase in the Off level brightness as I went through 1/0 thru 1/15. Of course the On level brightness increased but the Off level brightness remained the same through incrementing the On level 16 times (0-15). This was very much unexpected. Have not had a chance to test against an older KPL yet. Either the way the KPL reacts to the Off/On combinations has changed or my test methodology last year was very flawed.
Xathros Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 Sorry, I didn't read that carefully enough and missed those pairs. My understanding has been that Level 0 is LED off and level 15 is LED as bright as it gets. Your tests seem to indicate that the LED on level can get one step brighter than 15 by setting On to 0 and Off to >0 or did I misinterpret your results? I was kind of hoping that your test would show the ability to reverse the LED state by setting an Off level higher than On level but this clearly proves that isn't possible. I wonder if it would be worth a request to SmartLabs as that is likely something they could change in firmware for future models. Once again, UDI is ahead of the game with support for a feature that SmartLabs hasn't even considered yet. Thank you for all of your time on these tests. I hope someday soon my schedule will lighten up enough for me to have more time to experiment. -Xathros
LeeG Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 Your conclusion is exactly right as far as Off/On 2/15 going to 3/0 increases the Off brightness level (2/x going to 3/x) as well as the On brightness level by what looks to be the equivalent of a bump by 1 On level brightness. I'm not absolutely sure every bump of the On level by +1 physically increased the actual On level. Watching the LEDs directly for many hours it got hard to be sure of a physical reaction. That would be 8 (0-7) x 16 (0-15) = 128 distinct different On levels. Although the Rev 5.0+ User Guide indicates the KPL supports 256 Brightness levels with software. Makes me wonder if the Off level of 0-7 might actually support 0-15 which would provide 256 On levels. I can test that under Powerhome as it supports issuing commands with just about any value one wants to use. Great testing tool. Need to test an old KPL before moving to that test. There was no combination that reversed On and Off. That is, the LED was On when the button was Off and the LED Off when the button was On. I’m skeptical about SmartLabs reacting to user requests but it cannot hurt. I suspect it would confuse the end user with LED On indicating button Off. .
Xathros Posted August 27, 2013 Posted August 27, 2013 I suspect it would confuse the end user with LED On indicating button Off. I agree, though I don't suspect it would be any more confusing than the IOLinc trigger reverse when queried issue. And since they decided to ship the wrong type switch with the Garage door kit, it might help the situation to some extent. I also share your viewpoint on SmartLab's willingness to listen to/react to end user input. -Xathros
Techman Posted August 31, 2013 Author Posted August 31, 2013 LeeG and Xathros - thank you for your input. I wanted to use the LED color change kit but found that when using the color diffusers you need to have the LED's set at a high level in order to compensate for the loss of light through the diffusers. I wanted the buttons to be dark when off but with the mandated 0/8 ratio it's obviously not possible. What's the logic behind not being able to select the on led intensity completely independent of the off intensity?
LeeG Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 I took the button caps off when I ran the latest series of tests to better observe the LED levels. There remains a predictable minimum difference but it looks like the On level can be adjusted over a range of 16 increments. That is, when the Off level is set at 2 the On level can be set in a range of 0-15. The 0 On level appears to be 8 increments above the Off level but can be increased in increments of 1 to a value of 15. The increase in the visual On level is a very small amount for each +1. I could not see the difference with the opaque caps in place but is visible in a dark room with the caps off. I tried to replicate the test I ran a year ago taking the button caps off but found that KPL had died during a storm and was replaced in the test bed. Not all KPLs seem to increase the On level at the same exact rate but that can easily be the difference in components in any given KPL. The increase in visual On level for each +1 is very small. This does not allow the Off level to be set independent of the On Level. For a 0 Off level the button LEDs are off when the button is Off. The max On level with a 0 Off level is nowhere the max On level with a 7 Off level. I do not know the reasoning behind that design and SmartLabs will never provide the rationale behind that design. It would appear that using the color change kit for selected buttons only was not anticipated.
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