ABLE1 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Posted January 16, 2014 Xathros and others, Ok, today I did some more testing and found some more NOT's. 1) First checked the Event Viewing on Level 3 as suggested. With a clear board I flipped the offending 3way switch to get the Insteon Light to react. When it did Nothing registered on the Viewer. I performed the test 4 times and Nothing. Just to be sure that the Event Viewer was working I turned the Ineston switch off and on and it indeed did respond and registered the action. The switch address is 28.96.D1. The result history is below. =============================================================== Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:50 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 28.96.D1 00.00.01 CB 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:50 PM : [std-Group ] 28.96.D1-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:50 PM : [ 28 96 D1 1] DOF 0 Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:50 PM : [ 28 96 D1 1] ST 0 Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:50 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 28.96.D1 13.00.01 CB 06 00 (00) Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:50 PM : [std-Group ] 28.96.D1-->13.00.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:50 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:57 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 28.96.D1 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00) Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:57 PM : [std-Group ] 28.96.D1-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:57 PM : [ 28 96 D1 1] DON 0 Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:57 PM : [ 28 96 D1 1] ST 255 Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:57 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 28.96.D1 11.00.01 CB 06 00 (00) Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:57 PM : [std-Group ] 28.96.D1-->11.00.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Wed 01/15/2014 02:17:57 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. ============================================================================== 2) I then decided to place my analog meter on the voltage input to the Insteon Switch. The voltage read 120vac steady. I then flipped the offending 3way until the Ineston reacted. The voltage held rock solid, no change of input voltage. 3) Just for comparison I place the meter on the voltage input to the ceiling light. (Red output wire from Insteon Switch.) I then flipped the offending 3way until the Ineston reacted. The voltage dropped off, light went out, light came back and voltage returned to 120vac. 4) I then decided to replace the Ineston Switch with a New Unit that I had just received. I then flipped the offending 3way until the Ineston reacted. Another NOT has been found. Not the switch. 5) Re-installed the original switch. Saw no reason to do other wise. 6) Re-checked the wiring in the 4way circuit. Each of the two 3way switches have a single 14/3 romex wire and the 4way has two 14/2 romex wires. What this means is that the hot feed wire comes into the ceiling light fixture. I have not removed the ceiling fixture to check but I do not see a good reason to do so based on my test of 2) above. 6a) I re-confirmed that is just one of the 3way causes the Ineston to respond. The other 3way and the 4way do not affect the Ineston Switch. 7) Don't ask me to explain but, the Homeowner had a EMF meter that measures Gauss units in a value up to 200 Gauss. Not sure if this is any good information at all but here is what I observed. Placing the EMF meter next to black power input wire to the Ineston Switch while the light was on gave a reading of 16.1 Gauss. I then flipped the offending 3way and saw no change until the light went off and back on. This would be expected since the load changed during the time. The value return to 16 Gauss. Again not sure if this means anything but that is what was observed. Conclusion: So far my NOT's are racking up. I am really not sure what else I can test or try to find the problem. A few things that really puzzle me is how can a Mechanical Switch on a 120vac circuit produce any signal or affect on a wire if the is no load devices installed. Someone correct me if I am wrong but if a open switch is made and there is no load, thus no electrons move. How can an electronic device that is designed to respond to some kind of data signal actually see that signal and respond?? It is obvious that something is going on. I can't believe that this is so "Never heard of this before" unique. As was said by kck when I first started this thread indicated that he observed something similar. Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Even dumb suggestion since they may spark another thought. Thanks, Les
ABLE1 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Posted January 16, 2014 As an associated question. It there another Forum that I should be posting this question or issue that may have additional input to help resolve the problem?? Thanks again, Les
Techman Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 It sure sounds like the wiring for the offending 3-way switch could be the issue. either a bad connection or incorrectly wired. Have you tried removing at least 2 of the 3 wires on the offending 3-way switch, then checked to see if the Insteon light still works? This would eliminate the possibility of incorrect wiring. When the 3-way switch is tripped you could be getting a momentary voltage interruption in the Insteon circuit which may not register on the analog meter.
ABLE1 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Posted January 16, 2014 It sure sounds like the wiring for the offending 3-way switch could be the issue. either a bad connection or incorrectly wired. Have you tried removing at least 2 of the 3 wires on the offending 3-way switch, then checked to see if the Insteon light still works? This would eliminate the possibility of incorrect wiring. When the 3-way switch is tripped you could be getting a momentary voltage interruption in the Insteon circuit which may not register on the analog meter. Ok, I can accept a possible bad connection but where?? The only place I have not checked is at the ceiling light fixture box. I will check. On the "incorrectly wired". How can a 4way circuit be wired "incorrectly" and still function as desire or designed?? Incorrectly wired tells me that it is not going to work properly. This one does. I have not tried to remove 2 wires from the offending switch............... but I will. Are you suggesting removing from the common terminal and another or just the contact terminals?? On the "momentary voltage interruption" it would have to be in microseconds. The analog meter was being watched by a very steady eye and it was rock solid. If there was a interruption of a microsecond or even a milisecond that could not be seen on the meter would or could the Ineston Switch even respond in any way?? I will check as suggested. However, I will wait to accumulate additional thoughts first. Thanks for the input. Les
Techman Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 Les, I think the circuit with the Insteon switch might somehow be in series with the offending 3-way switch as most of the other possibilities have been eliminated. If you disconnect the wires from the 3-way and the Insteon switch still works then that wouldn't be the case. If the Insteon switch fails to work with the wires disconnected then the circuit was incorrectly wired. You can remove any two of the three wires which will essentially remove the switch from the circuit.
ABLE1 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Posted January 16, 2014 Oh, not that the 4way circuit is improperly wired but that more like the 4way circuit is improperly wired. Ok, I got it. But given your thought on the above. Would it not happen with every flip of the 3way switch. Sometimes it will take 15 -20 flips before it happens, and then it will take 2 - 5 flips to happen again. And when it does there is no indication at the Insteon that the power has been effected. I will let you know. So just for a moment, assuming that the Insteon does in fact work after the 3way is disconnected what would be your thoughts at that point?? Anything else I should be looking at that I have not already done?? I am just trying to look at other steps. BTW can anyone here describe what type and when does data get sent down the wire?? As I remember with x10 it was at zero crossing and for about 4 volts with I think 8 or 9 bits of data. With Ineston I am not sure. Do not remember reading that information anywhere. Can anyone provide some insight into that information?? Thanks, Les
Techman Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 It would be that the circuit with the Insteon switch is improperly wired. The theory is that when the 3-way is switched there would be a momentary break in continuity, causing a voltage drop, to the circuit with the Insteon device. The problem could be worse at night when more lights, etc. are on causing more of a voltage drop at the Insteon switch which could explain why the problem is intermittent. If that isn't the culprit you might want to think about selling the house.
ABLE1 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Posted January 16, 2014 LOL Not my house but I will suggest it to the owner. He may be very receptive and might be reading this thread. I do understand what you are getting at. I just can't get my head around what you are suggesting based on what I have already observed. But then again nothing about this seems normal. Will let you know the results. Thanks, Les
ABLE1 Posted January 18, 2014 Author Posted January 18, 2014 Ok!!! Here is today's findings and what I did. Arrived on sight and the first thing was to remove two wires from the offending 3way switch. Did so and then checked the Insteon switched light and low and behold....................... it turned on. As it should!!! That is one more NOT. Then I decided to do what I had dreaded and moved the dining room table and checked the ceiling fixture junction box. Expecting to find all the splices for the 4way circuit. My plan was to tear it apart and check all the connections in order to find another NOT or not. Pulled the cover down and what did is see?????????????? One 14-2 romex connected to the lamp wiring. What the.....................................?? Well that means that the junction box must be somewhere else...................like the basement. Sure enough there it was nailed to a floor joist. Took the cover off and pulled the splices out. All looked as they should. Isolated the power feed to the box and separated the power feed to the 4way, and Insteon switch circuits and tagged. I was so happy finding the splice box that I did not even take the time to see if the problem was still happening. Happy! Happy! Happy!!!! I then had a conversation with the homeowner and asked this question. "What is more important, finding and understanding the problem or making it go away." He said, "80% making it go away and 20% curiosity of finding and understanding the problem." I then rewired the circuit to feed the 4way over to an near junction box that had a hot circuit. Reconnected all and the problem went away. So, I would like to THANK all that helped with thoughts and suggestions. At this point we will never know the cause. I can now sleep nights and get back to the rest of my life. And I am good with that!!! To be honest I would really have liked to continue troubleshooting until the source of the issue was found and corrected. But sometimes it is better just to throw in the towel and relax. Again thanks to all!!!! Les
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