EricK Posted March 1, 2014 Author Posted March 1, 2014 The reason I want the bypass is so I can maintain water flow if the valve were to malfunction. The other good reason is that I can play with it/test it with my leak sensors and scenes without interrupting water flow. Regarding the site you mentioned I have looked hem up and they are listed as an unauthorized seller on the elk website. Checking their reviews, it looks like they are good if everything goes fine, but if there is a problem, then you will have a problem. I bought my elk wsv2 from smarthome when it was on sale. I have a dmp alarm and will have to look into getting this to turn off the water. I'll just rely on the away button until then.
shannong Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 Shannon,Sounds like you know more about plumbing than I do, but what you describe looks good to me. Eric I'm not a plumber but I play one on the internet.
shannong Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 What is the purpose of the bypass? The valve is an electric motor which I expect to fail at some point. And that motor is controlled by my HA which can introduce its own problems. I want to be able to route around the valve should it fail or other issue arrive. With a bypass valve, any family member or someone home sitting for me could easily find it and turn it to restore water to the home for whatever situation occurs. I also get the benefit of being able have the water to the home on while testing, replacing, or doing whatever to the valve and setup. It will only cost a few extra bucks so the benefits far outweigh the cost to me.
apostolakisl Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 The reason I want the bypass is so I can maintain water flow if the valve were to malfunction. The other good reason is that I can play with it/test it with my leak sensors and scenes without interrupting water flow. Regarding the site you mentioned I have looked hem up and they are listed as an unauthorized seller on the elk website. Checking their reviews, it looks like they are good if everything goes fine, but if there is a problem, then you will have a problem. I bought my elk wsv2 from smarthome when it was on sale. I have a dmp alarm and will have to look into getting this to turn off the water. I'll just rely on the away button until then. Having owned a wsv for 5 years and operating several times every day (every time we arm away), and the fact that it can be manually turned, I would say that you need not be concerned about it failing. The bypass only helps you if it jams in the closed position, and having a union fitting would let you pull it out and replace it with a short piece of standby pipe you could keep "just in case" is a 2 minute job. I don't personally keep such a piece of pipe on hand since I don't think a jamming shut is a real risk. Assuming you are paying a plumber, between parts and labor the bypass is probably adding a couple hundred dollars to the project. You also end up with a pretty bulky set of pipes. You also introduce risk that somehow the bypass is left open and a real water emergency that properly shuts the wsv off does not actually shut your water off. Testing is just done when someone is not taking a shower. You for sure should have a second valve in line with the wsv between it and the city and you for sure should put a union fitting so that the wsv can be removed if need be without cutting copper. The second valve for me is at the street.
shannong Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 EDIT: And one more suggestion. Program your alarm system to turn the water off when it is armed away. I've really been struggling with this one. I like the reduced risk associated with having it off when away. Not only does it protect against the rare event of power outage during a leak but it also statistically means I'm far less likely to have a leak at all while away. I'm away from home 25% of the time so that means having it off would leave no pressure to have a leak at all during that time. My dishwasher and washing machine run up to an hour so I'd need a delay at least that long. The landscapers are here at any given time on Friday and need the water on then. Ice maker in the fridge wouldn't be able to fill. So there's that..... It is an electric motor. How many times can it operate until failure? I'm have no clue. Cycling it a minimum of 2 times a day and often 4 or more means it will fail a lot sooner than running a test program once a month to make sure it's still working. I also worry about the Insteon command to turn it back on failing as they occasionally do when returning home and dealing with the WAF of no water because of the HA system. The full-on HA project is already a sticky subject at times. When I think about all those things and then consider how rare it would be for there to be a power outage during a leak I shy away from the idea. Perhaps I'll feel differently once fully installed, and I've tested it out for a bit.
apostolakisl Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 EDIT: And one more suggestion. Program your alarm system to turn the water off when it is armed away. I've really been struggling with this one. I like the reduced risk associated with having it off when away. Not only does it protect against the rare event of power outage during a leak but it also statistically means I'm far less likely to have a leak at all while away. I'm away from home 25% of the time so that means having it off would leave no pressure to have a leak at all during that time. My dishwasher and washing machine run up to an hour so I'd need a delay at least that long. The landscapers are here at any given time on Friday and need the water on then. Ice maker in the fridge wouldn't be able to fill. So there's that..... It is an electric motor. How many times can it operate until failure? I'm have no clue. Cycling it a minimum of 2 times a day and often 4 or more means it will fail a lot sooner than running a test program once a month to make sure it's still working. I also worry about the Insteon command to turn it back on failing as they occasionally do when returning home and dealing with the WAF of no water because of the HA system. The full-on HA project is already a sticky subject at times. When I think about all those things and then consider how rare it would be for there to be a power outage during a leak I shy away from the idea. Perhaps I'll feel differently once fully installed, and I've tested it out for a bit. My hose bibs split off prior to the wsv and the sprinkler is on well water, so those problems are avoided for me. I shut the hose bib valve off in the fall and drain the pipes in the winter. I paid the high price for the wsv so I can get 20 years out of the little motor in there. It is absolutely a high-end device and I see no reason that the motor in there shouldn't last longer than I do. My ice machines pulls off of my reverse osmosis filter which has a pressurized holding tank. So it keeps working fine for quite a few batches of ice even with the water off. In short, the water turning off when we arm the system is invisible from a user standpoint. The only way I know it is working is because it is in the garage and I can hear it turning the water back on when I come home. The scary thing in my opinion is the fact that you are using Insteon to control it. At some point it will fail, and I can promise you that it will be Insteon's fault, not Elk's. That is why I hardwired mine to my Elk and hardwired my water sensors to the Elk as well. But I can understand that a retro-fit may be cost prohibitive. I put mine in during construction.
shannong Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 ontThe scary thing in my opinion is the fact that you are using Insteon to control it. Agreed. I have both Elk and Honeywell wireless transceivers but I haven't seen anything to provide a wireless relay controlled by the panel. I'll probably run a multi-strand cable from the garage to the wiring closet where the Elk is a later date. I'll probably have to run it on the exterior under he soffit and penetrate the wiring closet from the outside. It's unfortunate but I don't see another way. Via what mechanism are you activating the valve with the Elk?
apostolakisl Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 ontThe scary thing in my opinion is the fact that you are using Insteon to control it. Agreed. I have both Elk and Honeywell wireless transceivers but I haven't seen anything to provide a wireless relay controlled by the panel. I'll probably run a multi-strand cable from the garage to the wiring closet where the Elk is a later date. I'll probably have to run it on the exterior under he soffit and penetrate the wiring closet from the outside. It's unfortunate but I don't see another way. Via what mechanism are you activating the valve with the Elk? Elk m1g has one built-in relay and you can buy relay boards (8 per board). I have 32 relays on mine running all kinds of stuff in addition to the wsv. EDIT: Also, you can remotely locate a relay board. You will need to run an rs-485 connection to the relay board just the same as a keypad. And, don't forget that most of the Elk keypads have an output on them which you can use to run a relay, so if you have a keypad near your water valve, you need only pull a wire from the keypad to the valve.
shannong Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 I now realize connecting it to the Elk M1 will be easier than I thought (but more expensive) and I won't have to wait until I'm ready for a more involved project. As usual, there's an alarm keypad right inside the door leading in from the garage. I can run a wire through the wall into the garage to add an output expander on the 4-wire bus daisy chained off the keypad. My keypad is an M1KP2 which has one wired supervised zone input. I can connect that to the relay for sensing the status of the valve. Since I can use my keypad to monitor the status I won't need an IOLinc so that offsets about a third of the cost of the output expander. My Insteon system will still know the status and be able to activate the valve since I'm running the Elk module on my ISY while benefiting from the reliability of a hardwired solution directly to the Elk M1 panel. Perfect! The UPS on the Elk M1 panel will last at least 7 days with no power but probably longer. I'll by a smaller UPS to run the valve in the garage locally. It's overly simple and I'm not sure why I didn't think of this before. Since I'll know the opening/closing of the valve with the arming/disarming of the system will be 100% reliable, I'm more inclined to shutoff the water upon exit. Thanks for helping to lead me down the right path.
apostolakisl Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 I now realize connecting it to the Elk M1 will be easier than I thought (but more expensive) and I won't have to wait until I'm ready for a more involved project. As usual, there's an alarm keypad right inside the door leading in from the garage. I can run a wire through the wall into the garage to add an output expander on the 4-wire bus daisy chained off the keypad. My keypad is an M1KP2 which has one wired supervised zone input. I can connect that to the relay for sensing the status of the valve. Since I can use my keypad to monitor the status I won't need an IOLinc so that offsets about a third of the cost of the output expander. My Insteon system will still know the status and be able to activate the valve since I'm running the Elk module on my ISY while benefiting from the reliability of a hardwired solution directly to the Elk M1 panel. Perfect! The UPS on the Elk M1 panel will last at least 7 days with no power but probably longer. I'll by a smaller UPS to run the valve in the garage locally. It's overly simple and I'm not sure why I didn't think of this before. Since I'll know the opening/closing of the valve with the arming/disarming of the system will be 100% reliable, I'm more inclined to shutoff the water upon exit. Thanks for helping to lead me down the right path. The m1kp2 also has a single 50ma controllable output on it, so you wouldn't need the relay board. Just a single relay (with a 50ma or less coil) connected to the output of the keypad. Super Cheap.
shannong Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 The m1kp2 also has a single 50ma controllable output on it, so you wouldn't need the relay board. Just a single relay (with a 50ma or less coil) connected to the output of the keypad. Super Cheap. It's referenced as a feature with "One Programmable Switched Positive Voltage Output" that I had overlooked. And it's actually not documented anywhere in the owner's manual showing the location of the connections or providing any specifications. Where did you get the 50ma rating? Is the output voltage 12V DC?
apostolakisl Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 The m1kp2 also has a single 50ma controllable output on it, so you wouldn't need the relay board. Just a single relay (with a 50ma or less coil) connected to the output of the keypad. Super Cheap. It's referenced as a feature with "One Programmable Switched Positive Voltage Output" that I had overlooked. And it's actually not documented anywhere in the owner's manual showing the location of the connections or providing any specifications. Where did you get the 50ma rating? Is the output voltage 12V DC? And yes it would be 12v though it doesn't say it. Everything on elk is 12v
shannong Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 And yes it would be 12v though it doesn't say it. Everything on elk is 12v Ah... Skipped on by it because it was on the data bus connection page. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.
apostolakisl Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 And yes it would be 12v though it doesn't say it. Everything on elk is 12v Ah... Skipped on by it because it was on the data bus connection page. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. All you need to do is pull a single 4 conductor wire (or more, cat5 would work) from your keypad to the wsv. Put your relay at the wsv along with a 12v wall wart and your done. As you mentioned, a UPS could be added.
shannong Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 Thought my post below might be of interest to those here on this thread. viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13832
EricK Posted March 9, 2014 Author Posted March 9, 2014 Oh yeah, plumber was here yesterday. Paid a ridiculous amount to have the ELK valve installed, but they did a great job. I have the multiple valves so I can easily bypass the system. The valve is in the ceiling in a basement kitchen/utility room. A sink in the room did run for a couple of minutes after the valve triggered from a leak sensor. I suspect water upstairs would run for less. I dont remember if it was in this thread or another, but maybe I should have a water valve turn on when a leak is detected to bleed the system. I have three more leak sensors to install, although I cannot get one to be recognized. Anyway, here is the pic.
shannong Posted March 9, 2014 Posted March 9, 2014 Thanks for the update. Congrats on the finish. I was the one who suggested another valve to bleed the system. I'm in TX so we don't have basements but I do have a second story which provides the same problem. You should probably consider another valve in the basement that opens and flows directly into the drain pipe of the sink like a dishwasher would do. That will work even better than the one I have planned that would be at ground level outside. Mind sharing the total cost of the plumber?
EricK Posted March 9, 2014 Author Posted March 9, 2014 Don't cringe. 400. The plumbing co is right down the road from us. I had a guy out for at least 4 hours on a Sunday when the basement shower backed up while the washer was running due to a root in the line. The guypulled the toilet, snaked and scoped the line and charged 500. They wanted 120 to replace the kitchen faucet while my hvac co that now does plumbing wanted twice that. My guys came out and charged zero when I thought my sons bathroom sink was leaking. I was thinking 300 for the job, but with this co, I like the service they provide, so I just paid. I know that if i have a problem that they will be on it. Anyway, by the fact that I now have system in place I have almost guaranteed that I will not have a leak. Superstitious like that.
Teken Posted March 9, 2014 Posted March 9, 2014 Don't cringe. 400. The plumbing co is right down the road from us. I had a guy out for at least 4 hours on a Sunday when the basement shower backed up while the washer was running due to a root in the line. The guypulled the toilet, snaked and scoped the line and charged 500. They wanted 120 to replace the kitchen faucet while my hvac co that now does plumbing wanted twice that. My guys came out and charged zero when I thought my sons bathroom sink was leaking. I was thinking 300 for the job, but with this co, I like the service they provide, so I just paid. I know that if i have a problem that they will be on it. Anyway, by the fact that I now have system in place I have almost guaranteed that I will not have a leak. Superstitious like that. You can not guarantee you won't have a leak. That comes hand in hand with time and age of the building and the environment. What you have done is, being proactive with a solution that will assist you in reducing the amount of damage that may occur. As another member indicated in all cases you will need to wipe up / clean the area of water. As you noted even when this valve activated there was plenty of water in the system to run out. If you have wooden floors every bit of water containment is important. Ceramic / lanolin flooring not so much . . . In all cases, as I indicated local control of the water supply is paramount if the total amount of water to be negated is the end goal. Teken . . .
shannong Posted March 9, 2014 Posted March 9, 2014 I've added one more thing to my setup. For my sinks in a cabinet, I've put in a mat that actually holds water and have the sensor sitting in it. The one I picked up holds 3 gal. There are also companies that make one for washers that I plan install in the utility room cabinet.
apostolakisl Posted March 9, 2014 Posted March 9, 2014 I've added one more thing to my setup. For my sinks in a cabinet, I've put in a mat that actually holds water and have the sensor sitting in it. The one I picked up holds 3 gal. There are also companies that make one for washers that I plan install in the utility room cabinet. [attachment=0]Capture.PNG[/attachment] If I had had one of these, my water sensor would have failed to work since my leak ran down the wall and would have gone behind and under that pad, not into it. This particular leak would have then gone undetected for probably a couple weeks and would have cost 10's of thousands of dollars since it would have ruined a big section of mesquite flooring instead of just the cost or repairing the leaking pipe. I wouldn't use it and if you did, I would not put the water sensor inside of it. . unless you plan on using 2, 1 in and 1 out. Put the water sensor on the thing you are trying to protect.
EricK Posted March 9, 2014 Author Posted March 9, 2014 You can not guarantee you won't have a leak. That comes hand in hand with time and age of the building and the environment. What you have done is, being proactive with a solution that will assist you in reducing the amount of damage that may occur. As another member indicated in all cases you will need to wipe up / clean the area of water. As you noted even when this valve activated there was plenty of water in the system to run out. If you have wooden floors every bit of water containment is important. Ceramic / lanolin flooring not so much . . . In all cases, as I indicated local control of the water supply is paramount if the total amount of water to be negated is the end goal. Teken . . . Teken, You missed the sarcasm. Just like I wrote about spending money on a backup generator, the power will never go out now. Now that I have dropped money on a system it will ward off the evil spirits. Eric
shannong Posted March 9, 2014 Posted March 9, 2014 If I had had one of these, my water sensor would have failed to work since my leak ran down the wall and would have gone behind and under that pad, not into it. This particular leak would have then gone undetected for probably a couple weeks and would have cost 10's of thousands of dollars since it would have ruined a big section of mesquite flooring instead of just the cost or repairing the leaking pipe. I wouldn't use it and if you did, I would not put the water sensor inside of it. . unless you plan on using 2, 1 in and 1 out. Put the water sensor on the thing you are trying to protect. Hmm.... Didn't think of that. The lip of the mat is flush against the back wall. I just poured a cup of water down the back wall and most drained into the mat and set off the sensor. I think I'm good in the kitchen. That might not work for the utility cabinet with washer since it's a textured wall rather cabinet back. I'll have to rethink the idea of getting one for in there.
Teken Posted March 9, 2014 Posted March 9, 2014 Now that I have dropped money on a system it will ward off the evil spirits. Eric Teken . . .
apostolakisl Posted March 9, 2014 Posted March 9, 2014 If I had had one of these, my water sensor would have failed to work since my leak ran down the wall and would have gone behind and under that pad, not into it. This particular leak would have then gone undetected for probably a couple weeks and would have cost 10's of thousands of dollars since it would have ruined a big section of mesquite flooring instead of just the cost or repairing the leaking pipe. I wouldn't use it and if you did, I would not put the water sensor inside of it. . unless you plan on using 2, 1 in and 1 out. Put the water sensor on the thing you are trying to protect. Hmm.... Didn't think of that. The lip of the mat is flush against the back wall. I just poured a cup of water down the back wall and most drained into the mat and set off the sensor. I think I'm good in the kitchen. That might not work for the utility cabinet with washer since it's a textured wall rather cabinet back. I'll have to rethink the idea of getting one for in there. The leak at my house ran down the inside of the wall. It soaked the insulation and sheetrock and got the wood floor that butted up to the sheetrock wet which is what tripped the water sensor. This was behind the dishwasher. Had I had a pan under the dishwasher and this in the pan, it never would have tripped. I had to pull the dishwasher, rip out the sheetrock and insulation and repair the pipe. I put new insulation in but didn't bother with sheetrock. I didn't see any reason for it behind the dishwasher.
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