Repair of 2413S PLM When the Power Supply Fails

[EngMarc]

Thanks for the page reference. My 2413U looks kind of like the v1.7 shown in the photo but not quite exactly the same. I’ll see what the new one looks like when I receive it tomorrow and post a pic. I ordered it from Amazon which appears to come from Smarthome. I saw a ton of them on ebay but didn’t want to go down that path since I’m going to be repairing the old one I have - I wanted one that definitely worked.

[Brian H]

OK. Let us know how it goes.

[EngMarc]

So the new 2413U arrived and is a rev 2.5

I’ve attache’d some photos inside and as can be seen it has the two larger caps laying on their side as has been posted here for other newer revisions.

[Brian H]

A 2413U will not work with an ISY994i.

Is this PLM for a different project not using an ISY994i?

How did you get a USB model to work with an ISY994i?

C7 and C13 are the higher size capacitors and the TY series designed for switching power supplies.

 

[EngMarc]

Brian, I use my 2413U with a usb cable to my mac which runs Indigo. My whole house automation platform.

[Brian H]

Thanks for the information. I thought we where using the Serial PLM and an ISY994i.

The V2.5 has power supply updates like the larger capacity and different series caps. Should be more reliable. Can't say about the USB Daughter Board as except for one old 2412U. All the PLMs I have information and dissections are for Serial Port PLMs.

No experience with Indigo so this may not be pertinent.  The new PLM has a new six digit Insteon ID. The modules being controlled may have the original PLM ID in their link database. So you may have to update their link databases.

[EngMarc]

Brian,  actually Indigo has a link update function which reads the new PLM and then will send all insteon devices a refresh link update and synchronize it with the PLM. I ran this yesterday and it ran like a charm. The new PLM is up and running nicely. 

I did notice that when the old PLM was running near the end of its life, there was some very odd behavior in the insteon devices (flashing lights on same device with ceiling fan turned on, etc.). This had completely gone away. At the time, I thought this was an insteon fan module going bad. Turns out, it seem that the PLM was going bad.

Today, I on a whim found 2W and 5W resistors on Amazon. I ordered them just to have them and start some testing. The 2W is almost exactly the same size as the old PLM resistor so it is likely a 2W as theorized. 

[Teken]

11 minutes ago, EngMarc said:

Brian,  actually Indigo has a link update function which reads the new PLM and then will send all insteon devices a refresh link update and synchronize it with the PLM. I ran this yesterday and it ran like a charm. The new PLM is up and running nicely. 

I did notice that when the old PLM was running near the end of its life, there was some very odd behavior in the insteon devices (flashing lights on same device with ceiling fan turned on, etc.). This had completely gone away. At the time, I thought this was an insteon fan module going bad. Turns out, it seem that the PLM was going bad.

Today, I on a whim found 2W and 5W resistors on Amazon. I ordered them just to have them and start some testing. The 2W is almost exactly the same size as the old PLM resistor so it is likely a 2W as theorized. 

Trust me, you couldn't mistaken a 2 watt vs 5 watt resistor in your hand - Its a fatty! ?

[EngMarc]

yeah, I’ve got both in my possession now. the 2W is almost exactly the same size as the old PLM has installed. I’ll play around with debugging that unit and the circuit with the replaced caps.

[Brian H]

I am glad you are up and running again.

Will be watching for your findings on the old one.

[EngMarc]

Brian and others, I soldered in the 2W resistor and connect a low ameperage 110v feed, it seemed to have a possible short but I can’t find it. Not sure if the initial charge of the new caps was large. the 2W resistor is still intact but seemed odd. I’m not too good at low level debugging of the circuit but will try some later on. I did use an isolated 110v power supply and ran it through a mAmp feed. I’ll try the direct connect to the isolated power supply and go through the voltages at the locations of interest to see what I find.

Ideas?

[Brian H]

If it was a low current circuit. It maybe possible C3 charging and the electronics starting may have opened it up. The 27 Ohm resistor is supposed to limit the input current. Could be a brief current surge of a few amps.

From the schematic may not match the silk screened markings. I would check the 4 diodes D1,D2,D3,D4. L2 and C3 with a meter .C3 may show a low resistance until it charges and read differently depending on which probe of the meter was on the + terminal. You may want to try both directions to see the differences. If the resistance is low and does not go higher as it charges. It is possible the U1 LNK345GN has a Source to Drain short or leakage.

[Brian H]

Maybe a little more information may help.
For the diodes. Set the test meter to Diode Test. Connect the test leads across a diode.
Then reverse the leads. In one direction you should get a high reading in the other a low reading.

The L2 coil. In Ohmmeter setting on the meter. A few Ohms. Depending on its characteristics. I have not measured one in a 2413 base board.

For C3. I would connect a wire across it on the chance it is holding a charge. To discharge it. You could use a resistor as long as you are not touching both leads. This should also apply with the other electrolytic capacitors like C7 and C13 the two in the unregulated 12 volt supply. Closer to 20VDC if measured.
Then the Ohmmeter probes on its connections. May start with a low resistance reading then rise to a higher level.
Reverse the probe connections and again it may start low or even high go low and then back high.
Make a note of the resistance after charging in both directions.

[EngMarc]

Thank you, sounds like a plan. I’ll work on it in a bit.

also, I noticed yesterday when soldering in the 2W resistor that one leg is VERY close to the head of D3. From the schematic it appears this is ok as it appears the 2W 27 ohm resistor is indeed connected to D3 input. Can you verify for me (four eyes are always better than two )?

[EngMarc]

So I went through D1-D4 and they seem to test fine with 0.5 positive and 0 negative direction. D10 was also good.

when I put full 110v on the inputs it shorted the same 2W resistor. This is new after my recapping so suspecting my work. 
at first, I wasn’t aware a cap had a plus and neg post. So it is very possible C1 or C3 are in opposite as designed. Would that cause a short behavior?

i think I just found my answer online which states electrolytic capacitors will short if connected in wrong polarity. 
 

I'm going to remove C1 as when I checked it, the black negative stripe is on the (+) side which means it is reversed polarity. C3 and later were when I realized there was a polarity to these caps and they were installed correctly. I have a spare C1 (ordered 2 or 4 of everything since the postage was more than the parts). I’m going to see if I can tell if the current C1 is completely gone or if it just shorts - ideas?

[Brian H]

C1 on the schematic is not an electrolytic and should not have a polarity. It may have a stripe on one end. Indicating the outer foil lead. Do you know its value and voltage? Should be marked on the capacitors body.

All the Electrolytic capacitors including C3 are polarized and yes it matters if they are in backwards. They will fail. Shorting is one thing and sometimes you get a rubber seal on the bottom or top bulging and blowing off steam and aluminum foil.

Not familiar with your meter. On mine a diode reads 750 Ohms in one direction and several thousand ohms in reverse on the Diode setting on the meter. So 0 and .5 may or may not be correct.

From the schematic and a back side photo of the main board. The 27 Ohm resistor connects to D3 side. The side with the stripe.

Can you get a resistance reading on the C3 terminals?

[EngMarc]

So, took out C1 and checked it against the new one (bought two) and the forward and reverse resistance was quite different. So, I put in the 2nd C1 which is a 400v 10 uF electrolytic capacitor. Replaced the 2W resistor that blew. Checked resistance and polarity and then put it to the 110v test. Volia! 

Everything seems fine now and the green light on the side is light up. I pressed the button and it beeps in sync mode. This is a v2.0 PLM so it has some changes but not all the 2.5 changes. 

Evidently the C1 did short in reverse. I checked all the subsequent capacitors I had replaced and they are correctly polarized. 

So now I have a spare PLM!

A BIG BIG shout out to both Brian and Teken for their great support, feedback and knowledge. 

On another note, I have lots of spare components so if anyone needs some capacitors or 2W resistors let me know. I’ll happily send some.

Marc 

[Brian H]

OK. Glad you got a working spare.

If the 10uF/400VDC was backwards. That would cause it to fail. Most likely it shorted and the 27 Ohm resistor did its job. Maybe preventing one of the diodes from failing with too high a current through them.

If you used the 100uF 50VDC caps for C7 and C13. It is probably now close to a V2.3 component wise.

[EngMarc]

yeah, I did use the spare 100uF 50v caps in C7 and C13. I didn’t want to wait on the other ones I ordered. they are there and working so far.

[JasonW]

Just adding another update/confirmation to the discussion, nothing new here. This is my third replacement of caps in six years.

About four years ago (2016 ish), on v1.x PM, I replaced all 5 caps per original post, and confirm it fixed my issue to replace those five caps with the higher values shown on first page of this discussion. Repeat about two years ago (2018 ish), replaced only C7 and C13 using 10uF 50v caps and it solved that unit.

This week (Sept 2020), my un-modified v2.1 PLM bit the dust after a brief power outage.  Still had green light, but my ISY unit would not communicate with any of my light switches/dimmers.

I removed and tested the C7 and C13 caps from my v2.1 PLM. They were 47uF 50v "Topmay" brand. One tested at 46uF with 1.2% loss and ESR of 1.2ohms.  The other tested at 41uF, 12% loss and ESR of 140ohms. I replaced both with fresh 47uF 50v "Topmay" (I just happened to have same ones in stock), and it fixed the issue, ISY re-queried and all is working normally.

More recent posts tend to confirm anything from 10uF to 100uF 50v for C7 and C13 will work. Presumably 100uF may work better (?). Bottom line is, replacing C7 and C13 is definitely a good first-step to see if that resolves a broken PLM module.

[matapan]

Given the length of this post, I was wondering about a couple things:

For a v1.0 2413s, is the original post for component replacement still the best list to follow?

How long have people found the repairs to last? Another couple of years, or longer?

Is there a modification which would enable this module to last much much longer than what people were experiencing with the original unmodified module?

[Brian H]

You may want to look at page #5 and #7 of this thread. For internal photos of a V1.0 2413S

The V1.0 2413S has rework in the power supply. The C7,  C13 and a coil are hanging off the board . Along with a fly wire going to the solder side of the main board. To me it looked like originally only had one capacitor and no small coil in it.  For filtering.

I would use a quality capacitor (Low ESR and rated for a switching power supply)  in it.  I would say stick with the 10uF 35V or 50V for C7 and C13 due to the way they are sticking over the main board (see the pictures on the noted pages). The rest of the list should be OK. I am just not too sure about the size of the 100uF 35V or 50V physically fitting.

[matapan]

Thanks BrianH.

In an earlier post, OberKC suggested using film capacitors to replace the low voltage capacitors to increase reliability. Is this something that is possible? 

Also, is there any difference between a 2413U and a 2413S other than the daughterboard? Can a daughterboard from a 2413S replace a 2413U daughterboard to make a functional 2413S, providing the daughterboard is functional? 

Finally, for the 2443 Access Point, is there a way to tell if the access point has stopped functioning, other than to look for the presence of a lit LED indicator?

 

[Broyd]

Vents ...

[BobMic]

1 hour ago, matapan said:

Also, is there any difference between a 2413U and a 2413S other than the daughterboard? Can a daughterboard from a 2413S replace a 2413U daughterboard to make a functional 2413S, providing the daughterboard is functional? 

 

I tried to use a 2413U base board to replace the base board in a EzFlora and it didn't work.  There is a PIC Microcontroller on the base board and for sure it has a different program loaded on the EzFlora.  It seems like the daughter boards are just IO interfaces and the programming is in the PIC on the main board.