Brian H Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Value isn't everything. The two 10uf/35 volt ones in the raw +12 volt supply can have an increased ESR. Cause issues, with the 200 kHz. LNK354's Switching Power Supply IC's output frequency. Measured my old ones. With an MCM 72-10410True RMS Meter. 6.8uf/250V 6.31uf 100uf/25V 102.9uf 10uf/16V 10.53uf 10uf/35V 11.36uf 10uf/35V 8.84uf. The one I suspect killed my raw +12 volts. The 100uf/25 volt. I believe is in a small power line derived DC supply for the Zero Crossing Detector. If it is bad all the PLMs timing will be messed up. As Zero Crossing is used to time all the power line transmissions and received data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taterb Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I replaced all the listed caps and it still doesn't work. Polarity is correct, so I guess it is really dead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcheavens Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I had two dead PLM's. Both failed in similar fashions. They became unstable and would not communicate. LED's were very dim. Rebooting would fix them for a short period of time that got shorter as time went on. Replaced the five capacitors listed in this thread. C3 - 6.8uF 250v with digikey 491-4771-1-nd 10uF 400v C7 and C13 - 10uF 35v with digikey 493-5976-ND 10uF 50v C8 10uF 16v with digikey 493-10390-1-nd 10uF 16v C11 100uF 25v with digikey 493-3276-nd 100uF 25v As I removed them I tested each cap. On BOTH PLM's just repaired (and now working) the only caps not within specs were C7 On PLM#1 that would not work at all anymore the value was now 3.6uF. One my second one that would work for a few hours at a time was 6.04uF Hope this helps. In the future I might just try to replace C7, and replace it with a higher voltage rated cap. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 C13 and C7 are both in the unregulated 12 volt supply. Typically around 20 volts DC. Is your capacitor checker able to read the capacitors ESR? C13 is directly on the LNK354 switching regulator's output. Running at 200KHz. So C13 and C7 could have a bad ESR besides the low capacity you found on your C7. I didn't mark locations of the caps when I removed them from my HW1.5, 2413S. That would run for a short time and the unregulated 12 volts slowly dropped to 7 volts. The two 10uf/35v where both within the 20% tolerance most caps have. One was 11.36uf and the other was 8.8uf. I suspect mine had developed a bad ESR and got worse as they warmed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcheavens Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I could not test the ESR, just the capacitance. I replaced them all while I was in there. I have another failed one that I will work on in the next few weeks (It is at another location). My plan was to start with C7 remove and test/replace first on that unit. - I also plan on drilling a few holes around the device to lower the internal temperature. FYI, I also tried to replace the serial interface board and put it on a USB version that I had sitting around. (the daughter board location and header was the same) - That will NOT work! The USB version has different software in the mainboard. (But the mainboard looks more robust). Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whistlepigger Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Last year, my Insteon 2413S PLM failed, and I succussfully fixed it by following this post. Yesterday, I noticed that my EZIO40 (Smartenit Insteon relay device) had no LED or power. When I opened it up, I found that it contained a 2413x board, similar to the one inside the 2413S PLM. I applied this same capacitor fix to the EZIO40 and it is now operational !!! Thanks again for the great information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Many of the Smartenit Modules are built on the base PLM board with their own daughter boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixlr8 Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 My 2.5 year old 2413s died 2 weeks ago. No response to commands, programs not running, LED light out. I replace the caps per the list in this thread, LED now on, system taking commands from ISY now. Thank you to the folks who did the research on this issue and put together the parts list and supplier. But now when I startup the Admin Console it says that it can't connect with 2 of my 3 keypads. Is there something I should do to connect with them, I find it hard to believe that they would both go at the same time. One of them is only 4 months old. Would it hurt to do a modem restore even though I didn't replace the modem or do a factory reset? Thank you, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 You could certainly do a modem restore if you believe the PLM has lost the links to the KPL's. Before doing so I would suggest you right click on the KPL node and select restore device and see if they come back on line. Once that is completed reboot the ISY Series Controller. Report back success / failure. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I would also say do a modem restore. One of the symptoms of a PLM getting flaky. The Link Database was the links disappeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixlr8 Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 You could certainly do a modem restore if you believe the PLM has lost the links to the KPL's. Before doing so I would suggest you right click on the KPL node and select restore device and see if they come back on line. Once that is completed reboot the ISY Series Controller. Report back success / failure. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent Thanks for your input, here is what I have done and where things stand now. KPL- A; PLM had error it couldn't find it after my repair of the PLM. I did a "show device links table" for that KPL and it now appeared that the PLM could see it, but there was no communication to or from that KPL. Per your suggestion I did a "restore device" for KPL A, the system showed it was writing to the KPL- now it seems to function properly. Thank you KPL- B; Again PLM had error it couldn't find it, I tried doing the 'show device links table' for that KPL and it still shows that the PLM can't find it. I tried your suggestion to 'restore device' and unlike for KPL-A, nothing happened when I did that to KPL-B. I have sensors for doors open/closed and lights on/off in my shop, and the lights on KPL-B keys are working correctly to show the status of the sensors. So I am assuming that KPL-B is communicating some way. I have not rebooted the ISY controller or a modem restore yet. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Thanks for your input, here is what I have done and where things stand now. KPL- A; PLM had error it couldn't find it after my repair of the PLM. I did a "show device links table" for that KPL and it now appeared that the PLM could see it, but there was no communication to or from that KPL. Per your suggestion I did a "restore device" for KPL A, the system showed it was writing to the KPL- now it seems to function properly. Thank you KPL- B; Again PLM had error it couldn't find it, I tried doing the 'show device links table' for that KPL and it still shows that the PLM can't find it. I tried your suggestion to 'restore device' and unlike for KPL-A, nothing happened when I did that to KPL-B. I have sensors for doors open/closed and lights on/off in my shop, and the lights on KPL-B keys are working correctly to show the status of the sensors. So I am assuming that KPL-B is communicating some way. I have not rebooted the ISY controller or a modem restore yet. Jim Hello Jim, Please note battery operated devices will need to be individually awaken and restored if they are associated to the KPL B. If you see 1011 next to any battery operated devices simply press the set button to place them in linking mode. Do a restore device one at a time and you should be good to go. Please report success / failure. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixlr8 Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Hello Jim, Please note battery operated devices will need to be individually awaken and restored if they are associated to the KPL B. Please report success / failure. I have no battery operated devices in my system, no 1011 next to any device. Just red ! next to all KPL-B keys. To be clear, from my last post, I think all the sensors controlling the KPL-B key lights are associated with scene's and not programmed thru the PLM/ISY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Right click on KPL-B primary node an select Query. Paste the event trace to this topic. There is a Copy to Clipboard Icon on the bottom, right side, next to last Icon on the Event Viewer display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixlr8 Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Right click on KPL-B primary node an select Query. Paste the event trace to this topic. There is a Copy to Clipboard Icon on the bottom, right side, next to last Icon on the Event Viewer display. Before I saw your note, I did a "modem restore", exited out of the Admin console and then logged back into the Admin console, still had same error, couldn't communicate with KPL-B and KPL-B still showed red '!'. I just saw your note and went to run the test you requested and when I logged in, I did not get the communication with KPL-B error and all items the KPL-B now had 1011 in front of them. I then did a "restore device" and this time it spent a few minutes writing to the device and now all looks normal. !!?? To everybody who helped, thank you. I don't understand what happened, or why it is working, but at the moment everything looks to be running as it should. I did do one thing in follow up to the repair of the PLM that I probably shouldn't have, I connected the repaired PLM to the ISY with the ISY still running. I suspect I should have unplugged the ISY first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 I did do one thing in follow up to the repair of the PLM that I probably shouldn't have, I connected the repaired PLM to the ISY with the ISY still running. I suspect I should have unplugged the ISY first. Moving forward as you're aware you should always let the 2413S PLM be powered up first. Wait about 10-30 seconds than power up the ISY Series Controller. Doing this out of order when power is being applied will cause the ISY Series Controller to either come up in safe mode or cause random behavior. Normally if nothing is being read or written to the PLM while the system is up nothing will happen. But, if the system is in the middle of updating, executing programs, events, mail, etc. This can cause the system to fail to write those commands or fire off a program. The obvious case is a loss of known (status) state. Glad everything worked out enjoy the rest of the week end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaconwc Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 New to the forum and glad I found this. I'm planning on trying to repair my recently failed 2413s. Mouser has everything except the UTS1C100MDD 10uF 16 volt in stock. Any suggestions for a substitute or other help would be appreciated. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixlr8 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 They didn't have it when I ordered the caps for mine, so I didn't change that cap, I just replaced the others and the PLM is now working again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 C8. The 10uf/16V is in the 5 volt logic power supply. From a linear regulator. Mouser 647-USV1C100MFD. Fits fine. It is a general purpose high temperature capacitor. Not a low ESR type. In the 5 volt circuit should not needed. C7 and C13 10uF/50V are the most critical. As they are in the small switching supply producing the unregulated 12 volts. That also feeds the input of the 5 volt supply. C11. 100uF/25V is in the zero Crossing circuit. If it goes bad. The signal timing will be bad. One correction to a previous post I made. C7 is on the input side of the small pi filter not C13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaconwc Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Thank you for the help on the Mouser 647-USV1C100MFD. I went to order and now the C11 100uF/25V (UTT1E101MPD) is backordered...available but backordered. I tried Mouser's cap finder tool and came up with UHE1E101MED which is 6.3 diameter (smaller) and 11mm long (longer). Again, your help is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 I just received a hardware V2.1, Date Code:1505, Firmware 9E, 2413S. I will be doing some tests and evaluations on it this weekend. I am not 100% sure if it is working correctly. The built in communications tests don't work as well. In known good locations other PLMs or Access Points have no issues. Also the LED flashes Red/Green from other modules that started the communications tests. I found the same thing Lee reported in a earlier post. C3,C8 and C11 are the same as the older PLMs and revision 2 and above Access Points. C7 and C13 are now Fujicon RK series 100uF/35v caps. Fujicon RK series capacitors are a general purpose high temperature. Not a low ESR or low impedance type. Usually used on switching supplies. As the output of the small power transformer is 200kHz. I can't find a specifications sheet on the original Samcon capacitors used in them. I don't know if they where for switching supplies either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wojo Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I'm back up and running! Scary how easily these things fail. The PLM failed from me pulling the breakers a few times in my condo. Replaced all the caps with equivs from my stock other than C3 with a 10uF 400V (on order from eBay for a few bucks). Think it is still worth bolstering up a new 2413S with a better C3 cap Seems like C7/C13 are different per above. Hmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kentinada Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The last cap in the list at the top of this thread (UTS1C100MDD 10uF 16 volt) is not available at Mouser. Is there an alternative cap or alternative supplier for all the caps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 This is the one I used from Mouser. http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/USV1C100MFD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22TfspN1CfqVcre90UL%2fPITI%3d The no longer available and the one I used. Both have the same physical sizes and temperature specification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgorm Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Thanks to all the awesome guys on this forum! My plm died today (exactly 2 years within a month) and they are on BO from Smarthome until 8/28. normally I get stuff from them the next day, and I have tons of other projects, but this looks pretty quick. I have the caps on order from the first post, except for the last one. Mouser #: 647-USV1C100MFD Mouser #: 661-EKY50ETD100ME11D (need 2) Mouser #: 647-UTT1E101MPD Mouser #: 80-ESX106M400AH4AA I really hope this works because having a dead system for over a week is going to SUUUCK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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