Scene vs programming (noob alert)

[ravedog]

Hi everyone. Been working on a project at my dad's house... Getting rid of all the old x10 stuff and going with Insteon. A lot of it was centered around their pool equipment (and a few outside lights). Had to redo a lot of the electrical to get it not so dangerous (ok, very dangerous... Pics included). I've got everything in the ISY and now is the time for programming and making it simple and bulletproof for dad. I've been lurking here for a bit trying to absorb things (my head has exploded numerous times so far).

 

To the point. So the pool equipment will be activated several ways. A kpl near the patio door. A RemoteLinc 8, a couple timer based programs for filtering and my MobileLinc (for testing and for me basically).

 

All the devices in this house work with direct control... Admin console or my MobileLinc... Turned on directly. Every time. Great.

 

So now the KPL. So I created some basic scenes for the KPL buttons that just turn things on and off for now (the intelligent control will come later). As soon as I hooked up the pool pump to its 240v relay (Insteon) it was important to get that working with its timer schedule. That was a simple turn on at 8am and run for 8 hours. Works every time.

 

Now I added the KPL, button a is tied to a scene that has the kpl as controller and pool relay as responder. Then I changed the program to run the scene instead of direct control so I could get the KPL to light up its status. The other day, it never came on even though the program indicated it was running. So I sent a direct command to turn it on and then the program shut it off at 4 properly using the same scene. Happened one time, but enough to be concerned.

 

Button c on the KPL is going to activate 2 relays on my EZIO8 outputs, each one connected to a solenoid controller that flips the circulation from the pool to the spa. 1 drains the pool or spa (suction) the other puts the water back in (return). It's critical that both those work together or you may end up draining the spa and returning the water back the pool... Or the other way which can be worse. Both these relays work every time I activate them individually with direct commands, but when in a scene it's flakey. When I showed my dad how the KPL worked, it drained the spa half way because the return valve did not activate. As you can see this can be a critical mistake. I think I understand the concept of scenes and how efficient they are in terms of traffic. But I'm thinking this might be better accomplished thru programming. There isn't a lot going on with the system as a whole so I don't think the extra traffic thru direct commands is harmful.

 

See if I have the concept down. Make button c on the KPL a responder in its own scene (Pool pump KPL light). Then make a program that looks for a press of button C (or the remotelinc) then the then turns on both valves then the kpl scene light to get feedback). I would like the light to not light up until the program does it (I think I understand that the light will light up if pressed locally regardless). Perhaps put them in toggle mode so that the program can do the heavy lifting?

 

I need to build in some checking to make sure both relays got the message and confirmed on (or off) (loop???) before lighting up the KPL or worse case if it cannot confirm both activated after a number of tries then maybe flash the kpl a few times before giving up and returning them both off again (off is pool, on is spa). Also have to intercept double presses or long presses as my dad's fingers don't always register pressure properly (MS) (but I can throw those in the if statement)

 

I'm using the spa as an example first before tackling the bigger project which is things like activating the heater button (which makes sure that first pump is running, then making sure spa relays are active and confirmed before firing up the heater). But I thought I'd start with the spa scenario.

 

Final thought. I've done a lot of reading here and as stated before my head has exploded. Mostly because there are tons of ways to skin a number of cats. (I am a Mac person because I don't like too many choices... I get stuck). So it how myself on the mercy of the forums brains to help me get this done. (My dad is getting worried it won't work after all the convincing that this would... And it will) not like the x10 ever worked well.

 

Thank you all for listening.

 

Pictures included for your amusement/approval.

 

 

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Edited August 24, 2014 by ravedog

[larryllix]

For critical operations you may want to avoid scenes. Apparently scenes do not get the feedback and comm retires that individual commands do in the Insteon world. That may cause some disastrous unwanted results should a command not "catch" at the remote end and you don't know it.

 

For lighting?  Who cares if one light doesn't respond but for critical equipment...? Back to the X10 level.

 

 

Edit: font adjustment...weird

Edited August 24, 2014 by larryllix

[ravedog]

That's what I was thinking. I have the pool light and spa light on a scene with a nice ramp and dim setting. It works. But the mechanics of the pool equip I want to handle with programs.

 

 

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So I guess I am going to need some help writing some programs to help me make sure I catch all possible outcomes. Anyone want to hold my hand?

 

 

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[stusviews]

If

  Status 'device you want controlled' is On

 

Then

  Set 'indicator of choice' On

 

Else

  Set 'indicator of choice' Off

 

If you want to use a KPL secondary button as an indicator, then you'll need to create a scene with that button as a responder because the ISY can't send a direct command to a KPL secondary button.

Edited August 24, 2014 by stusviews

[oberkc]

I definitely like your second picture better.

 

My quick reaction is that you may need a dedicated keypad button for both ON and OFF operations to get the positive feedback your are looking for.  Thinking aloud, set the ON button to NON-TOGGLE OFF mode (so that manual presses don't turn the LED on) and use the program to turn the backlight on once completed.  I would take the opposite approach with the OFF button.

 

The big point of the theory here is to ensure that there is there is only ONE way for the keypad button to indicate things are working properly, either by being on or off as you choose.   That one way is for the program to turn it on or off.  Make sure that a physical press is in NON TOGGLE mode, with the opposite mode.

[ravedog]

Can a button be lit even if in non toggle mode off thru programming?

 

 

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[LeeG]

Yes.   The mode of the button does not affect the result of the Scene used to turn the button LED On or Off. 

[oberkc]

Yes

[ravedog]

Awesome. So make the button non toggle off. Then use the prgram to determine current state. If on then if off then on.

 

 

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