ISY/PLM Combination

[haroldunger]

Thanks for the advice.

 

One thing that I didn't mention, three of the four switches that are now causing a problem installed perfectly.  I then tried to place them into a program by dragging all three at one time instead of one at a time  Could that have caused any issues?  Could I have corrupted something in the switches?  Perhaps, I should factory reset and reinstall them again?

 

Anyway, we'll have to try the circuit breaker off method.  I did suspect noise was an issue for the X10's, too.

 

BTW, we have installed couplers on every one of the five panels in the house.  I'll try the 4 tap beacon test (once I look up how to do it), but I thought that the couplers would obviate the need for that.

 

Do you think that the extension cord versus hard wired is irrelevant?  When we used the hard wired, non extension cord, connection, the PLM and ISY were within a few inches of each other and things seemed to be a bit worse.  Merely a coincidence?

[Teken]

Thanks for the advice.

 

One thing that I didn't mention, three of the four switches that are now causing a problem installed perfectly.  I then tried to place them into a program by dragging all three at one time instead of one at a time  Could that have caused any issues?  Could I have corrupted something in the switches?  Perhaps, I should factory reset and reinstall them again?

 

Anyway, we'll have to try the circuit breaker off method.  I did suspect noise was an issue for the X10's, too.

 

BTW, we have installed couplers on every one of the five panels in the house.  I'll try the 4 tap beacon test (once I look up how to do it), but I thought that the couplers would obviate the need for that.

 

Do you think that the extension cord versus hard wired is irrelevant?  When we used the hard wired, non extension cord, connection, the PLM and ISY were within a few inches of each other and things seemed to be a bit worse.  Merely a coincidence?

 

Hello Harold,

 

I've never tried to move three switches at once into a scene or folder before. So can't offer much insight to if that would cause an issue but know from past experience its always best to do one change at a time.

 

If this were me I would delete the device from the controller and hard reset it. Then, add it back and then try to create the scenes / programs and see. 

 

With respect to the breaker method this is intended for a quick global turn off. Ideally everything in the home should be unplugged temporarily just to help isolate the root cause of any noise makers / signal suckers. The reason I offer the breaker method is sometimes their are specific cases where not all items can be unplugged.

 

Say for example a huge fridge, display case etc.

 

Regardless, this method is tried and true and offers the best chance of isolating the culprit. The time invested now will identify the root cause keeping in mind not to over look your light fixtures. I wrote in another thread where did four other installs and shortly there after we found out with in a period of 30 - 97 days that the HD Cree lights that everyone bought because our POCO had a great subsidy had been causing all the comm issues these 4 sites had.

 

Typically if a load turns on fine but not off its the load . . .

 

In our case these Cree bulbs were running perfectly fine but as time went on (I guess) the power supply started to show signs of noise and thus causes initially random ability to turn on/off. Later it was a cascading effect where half the house would simply not operate at all or missed activation etc.

 

Also, besides lighting loads don't over look the common cell charger . . . This too was the bain of my existence because it worked perfectly for three years and then on year 3.2 it gave up the ghost not readily apparent to me or others.

 

This is why having filter at the ready can really help isolate those potential noise makers / signal suckers. Keep us all posted and look forward to your success! 

[Brian H]

OH. I looked at your earlier post and missed the PLM was not on the UPS.

The UPS can be one of the signal suckers Teken pointed out.

Its AC input filter will absorb Insteon power line signals as noise.

I have my UPS on the filtered output of a FilterLinc and the 2413S PLM in its pass through outlet on the front.

 

It is possible with the extension cord. You where on a power feed with less noise or signal suckers. Sometimes outlets close to each other can be on a completely different breaker. Maybe you can verify they are on the same breaker or different ones.

 

The four tap communications tests {called Beacon Test in some manuals}. You tap the set button four times and then observe the LEDs on other modules. To see if they are flashing Red or Green. Some of the newer modules only can do the communications tests through the Flow Chart method shown in the modules users manuals.

[paulbates]

You can click many devices and drag into a scene. The isy adds them serially. I've added up to probably over 10 at a time, by dragging into a scene, or fro one scene to another creating them.

 

I always wait for the isy to finish its pop up messages configuring the scene before performing other activities.

[haroldunger]

Thanks to all for your helpful comments.

 

The new 110v line is direct to the panel, perhaps, through a split breaker (2 in one slot).

 

Yes, I have dragged more than one in the past and I did notice that the ISY added things serially.  However, in this instance, the ISY got stuck in a loop.  It may have been that the ISY was losing connectivity while the scene was being created.  Dunno, as they say...

 

My plan is to delete the three switches that loaded properly and then became unavailable while creating a scene.  I'll reset them at the switches locally.  Before I go further, I'll reconnect the PLM to the new outlet and reconnect the ISY to the UPS.  I will move the ISY away from the PLM.

 

Then I try to get them going again.

 

After that, I'll have to deal with the one switch that appears to be near some sort of noise.

 

Any additional suggestions?

 

Thanks again.

[Teken]

Harold,

 

Can you let us know the length of the Ethernet cable in use to connect the PLM to ISY? I ask because even if you use CAT6 23 AWG wire serial communications have limits in terms of cable length. Having said this we have used more than 45 feet without issue.

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[haroldunger]

The cable that comes with the ISY: +/- 4 feet.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stusviews]

What do you mean that the electrician installed a dedicated outlet? Is it dedicated to the PLM meaning nothing else is plugged into that outlet or is it a dedicated circuit, meaning that nothing else is on that circuit at all. If the former, than what else is on that circuit?

 

The best way to determine the source of power line interference is to turn off all circuit breakerss except the one that powers the PLM and ISY. Then test every Insteon device on that circuit. If you have difficulty controlling one or more devices, then the culprit is a device on that specific circuit. If everything goes OK, then turn on one more breaker and test communication to (and from) each powered Insteon device including the ones you already tested. Continue turning on one breaker at a time and testing.

 

Troubleshooting is painstaking. There is no shortcut. Well, actually there is. After the initial test with the PLM and ISY, turn on half the breakers. Problem? Turn off half of the on breakers. Continue in the same manner until you find the problem circuit(s). Then you need to find and filter the specific device(s) causing the problem.

 

Use a similar method. Unplug or disconnect every device on that one circuit. They must be disconnected or unplugged, Just turning something off is inadequate. Then connect each device one at a time until the culprit surfaces.

[haroldunger]

It is a dedicated circuit directly to a breaker in the panel.  Nothing else is connected to that dedicated homerun line.

 

A little more background...

 

There are three problem switches/connections.  Two are within a few feet of two communicating switches on one end of the house. The two non communicating switches are part of a four way light.  The load switch communicates, the two others decided not to do so after initially communicating just fine.  I believe that the problem arose while programming all three into a scene.  These switches will be reset and re-entered into the ISY.  I'm hopeful that if the load switch of the four way is working, it was merely a glitch.  Fingers crossed...

 

The other troublesome switch is in the garage not far from two other garage switches that are communicating perfectly.  We believe that the troublesome switch is on another leg.  We have unplugged every noise maker that we can find.  We intend to pull a temporary line from the panel on the same leg of the other operating switches in the garage.  If that works, we will put that switch on a new permanent line or add it to the leg of the other two switches in the garage that are not acting up.  There are two new dryers and washing machines coming from the panels in the garage.  I'm of the belief that these four machines are not helping matters.  We cannot get to the backs of these machines to install filters.

[stusviews]

A dedicated circuit is ideal for both the PLM and ISY.

 

Can you successfully send on and off commands to each secondary switch in the 4-way configuration? The load will not come on, but the device's LEDs will.

 

Dryers and washing machines should not affect power line signals and may improve communication, but only if it's an electric dryer and it is on. Which specific brands and models? You should certainly be able to turn off the breakers for those machines.

[Brian H]

If the washers and dryers have fancy electronic controls. It is possible they are signal suckers or noise makers.

More likely signal suckers. As manufacturers try to stop their electronic noise from getting onto the power lines with a simple capacitor across the incoming power. Works great for their noise but also sucks up Insteon and X10 signals also.

[madcodger]

Just a quick question that may prove helpful to the OP at some point (and I am curious and can't remember): Does SH make an in-line filter that functions similar to a single-point FilterLinc? Could be helpful if noise is found to be something like fluorescent lighting.

[paulbates]

Just a quick question that may prove helpful to the OP at some point (and I am curious and can't remember): Does SH make an in-line filter that functions similar to a single-point FilterLinc? Could be helpful if noise is found to be something like fluorescent lighting.

Not from smarthome. There is an electronic device called a snubber, that term can be searched on this forum for more info.

 

The XPNR does a great job as well for x10 and insteon, I have several of these.

 

Both of these solution need an electrical box to go in, or need to fit into an existing one.

[madcodger]

Thank you, Paul! Will explore these. May help OP at some point as well. I think people overlook noise as the big culprit in Insteon systems. I've had a lighting circuit in the basement (fluorescents) that we can turn on from a KPL, but not off. Gotta be the load.

[paulbates]

Thank you, Paul! Will explore these. May help OP at some point as well. I think people overlook noise as the big culprit in Insteon systems. I've had a lighting circuit in the basement (fluorescents) that we can turn on from a KPL, but not off. Gotta be the load.

 

You're welcome. "Goes on but not off" are notable symptoms for this problem, and fluorescents are noisy, I experienced this with low voltage lighting transformers. You can get the xpnrs from amazon, for around $20. 

 

Paul

[haroldunger]

The new washers and dryers are definitely fancy and have electronic controls.

Assuming that they are sucking up the signals, would it help if I placed a dual switch near the washers and dryers to boost the Insteon network or would that make matters worse?

[Brian H]

I doubt more Dual Band modules close to them would make things worse.

You can do a rough test by just turning off their power or unplugging them.

[haroldunger]

Unplugging will be extremely difficult.  We will shut them off at the breakers to see if there are any changes.  If there are changes, we will have to figure out how to put filters in place since the units are in a row of two and mounted one on top of another, AND they are very large.

 

So, we are of the opinion that the extra switch would not make matters worse.  But, might it counteract a bit of the washer/dryer signal absorption and added noise?

 

Comments?

[stusviews]

It you be very unusual, although not impossible, that placing a dual-band device near a noise maker would overcome the noise. Is the washer/dryer 110/120V or 220/240V?

[Teken]

There is no doubt in my mind there are things either making noise or sucking the signal in the home. As the OP indicated a passive coupler has been installed on all related panels.

 

As I have stated many times these passive couplers do not repeat, regenerate, or offer RF coupling. This is why its important to have a few plugin dual band devices that can be moved around to assist in the coupling / bridging.

 

Regardless, all the coupling / bridging in the world will not supersede the need to identify the noise maker / signal sucker within the super structure of the home.

 

Lastly, it would be a mistake in thinking a Insteon device that is installed into a metal JBOX will offer much help since the antenna is in the back of the casing.

[haroldunger]

Teken,

 

OMG, you just hit a grand slam!

 

1. We will look for the noise from the 220v dryer and 110v washer.

2. I noticed a high ramp rate in one of the "S", not "D", switches that is not responding.  Never saw that before.  Anyway, that was one of the switches that was going to be reset.

3. Here's the grand slam...  The electrical setup for the original installation was a 25 foot extension cord to a plastic duplex outlet near the panel.  The whole house is Romex, as permitted by code.  Once everything was working, we had the electrician install the single separate outlet near the internet connection and the ISY.  The new box is all metal.  In one of my other installations, the PLM is plugged into a plastic Romex outlet.  In NYC, the PLM is connected via an extension cord to the all metal outlet.  In each of these situations, the RF signal is not instantly attenuated.  In the current installation, it is.  So, the box needs to be changed, or we should merely use a six foot extension cord from the new box.

 

Thank you!

 

Harold

[Teken]

Teken,

 

OMG, you just hit a grand slam!

 

1. We will look for the noise from the 220v dryer and 110v washer.

2. I noticed a high ramp rate in one of the "S", not "D", switches that is not responding.  Never saw that before.  Anyway, that was one of the switches that was going to be reset.

3. Here's the grand slam...  The electrical setup for the original installation was a 25 foot extension cord to a plastic duplex outlet near the panel.  The whole house is Romex, as permitted by code.  Once everything was working, we had the electrician install the single separate outlet near the internet connection and the ISY.  The new box is all metal.  In one of my other installations, the PLM is plugged into a plastic Romex outlet.  In NYC, the PLM is connected via an extension cord to the all metal outlet.  In each of these situations, the RF signal is not instantly attenuated.  In the current installation, it is.  So, the box needs to be changed, or we should merely use a six foot extension cord from the new box.

 

Thank you!

 

Harold

 

Hello Harold,

 

Apologies if I possibly led you astray . . .

 

When I spoke about the metal JBOX in simple terms it has to do with switches, outlets, that are dual band. Any dual band device which is placed inside of a metal box will pretty much negate the RF signal from the device as the antenna is located in the rear of the housing.

 

Any device that is simply plugged in to an outlet like a 2413S PLM, On-Off Relay etc would not be impacted by such as its sitting on the wall free air.

 

First step is to confirm proper coupling / bridging via the 4 tap beacon test and review all floors, rooms, area, zones. If each room shows blinking green in those specific locations you're good to go in that aspect.

 

Next, it comes down to isolating the noise maker(s) . . . 

 

Do not forget to look at all lighting loads from ceiling fans, CFL, LED, Florescent, etc. As I indicated in the first couple pages several sites which we installed a solid Insteon network started to fail. It took a considerable amount of time to determine that one home had 3-4 HD Cree bulbs that simply had something wrong with them.

 

They operated just fine in terms of turning on-off, dimmed great and had a smooth curve, made no noise or flicker. But out of 44 bulbs that were in this clients house these 3-4 bulbs simply had problems and it could only be seen by removing them from the light rows.

 

Meaning you can have 6 bulbs all in a circuit and literally it takes just one to cause you endless headaches. 

[haroldunger]

Got it, thanks.

BTW, when you mention LED's, could the little, thin, plug-in LED nightlights be noise makers, too?  There are a lot of them around the house.

If so, unplugging them is very simple.  Possibly, one of them is doing a lot of singing.

[stusviews]

Yes, LEDs or rather, their electronics, can place noise on the power line.

[haroldunger]

Well, we finished the installation and all seems to be working fine.

 

The "solution" was to add four dual dimmers as access points in the wing of the house that was giving us trouble.  We placed them in the middle of long runs where there were no Insteon devices.  It took a minor bit of trial and error, but within about 20 minutes the house was rock solid and has stayed that way for over a week.

 

I tried this method in lieu of searching for noisy appliances and LED's.  If it didn't work, then I would have played Sherlock Holmes.  I'm sure that there is some noise on the line, but, since this is working, I am leaving well enough alone.

 

As far as the tap test, I believe that I was covered since I had the electrician couple the legs at each panel.

 

Thanks to all!