smokegrub Posted October 14, 2014 Author Posted October 14, 2014 Here you go, PurdueGuy. I ran this for one of the two devices. Tue 10/14/2014 09:06:11 AM : [ IR] 02AA PressTue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.71.9A 00.00.01 C3 11 01 LTONRR (01)Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [std-Group ] 2C.71.9A-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 71 9A 1] [DON] [1] uom=0 prec=-1Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [ 2C 71 9A 1] DON 1Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.71.9A 00.00.01 C3 11 01 LTONRR (01)Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [std-Group ] 2C.71.9A-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [ IR] 02AA PressTue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.71.9A 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01)Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [std-Group ] 2C.71.9A-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 71 9A 1] [DON] [1] uom=0 prec=-1Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [ 2C 71 9A 1] DON 1Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.71.9A 28.CC.6C 41 11 01 LTONRR (01)Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [std-Cleanup ] 2C.71.9A-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:12 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.71.9A 28.CC.6C 42 11 01 LTONRR (01)Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:12 AM : [std-Cleanup ] 2C.71.9A-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:12 AM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:16 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.71.9A 28.CC.6C 47 11 01 LTONRR (01)Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:16 AM : [std-Cleanup ] 2C.71.9A-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:16 AM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [2C 71 9A 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:16 AM : [ 2C 71 9A 1] DON 0Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:18 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 2C.71.9A 11.01.01 C7 06 01 (01)Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:18 AM : [std-Group ] 2C.71.9A-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:18 AM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored.Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:23 AM : [ IR] 012A Press
PurdueGuy Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 I am no expert at reading these, maybe LeeG can express a different view. 2C.71.9A is your device, and it looks like you are getting 0 hops left sometimes by the time it hits the PLM. Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:11 AM : [std-Group ] 2C.71.9A-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0 Another time you had 1 hop left: Tue 10/14/2014 09:07:18 AM : [std-Group ] 2C.71.9A-->11.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 That makes me believe that you would have trouble using these devices to relay messages from the sensor.
LeeG Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) PurdueGuy I agree with everything you said. Max Hops=3 Hops Left=0 is at the extreme end of the functional scale. It is also changing (Hops Left=1) which is not a good indication. Edited October 14, 2014 by LeeG
smokegrub Posted October 14, 2014 Author Posted October 14, 2014 Are there remedial measures to improve this performance?
PurdueGuy Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Without knowing much about your setup, that's hard to answer. Be sure you have devices on board phases of your electrical system. You can use the beacon test with newer hardware to determine phases. Maybe you can add something near the garage door that is on the same phase as the PLM? Do you have just one electrical panel? Or multiple? Is the garage attached or detached?
smokegrub Posted October 15, 2014 Author Posted October 15, 2014 Without knowing much about your setup, that's hard to answer. Be sure you have devices on board phases of your electrical system. You can use the beacon test with newer hardware to determine phases. Maybe you can add something near the garage door that is on the same phase as the PLM? Do you have just one electrical panel? Or multiple? Is the garage attached or detached? The garage is detached and has a separate electrical panel. The feed to both panels comes through the same meter. I hadn't given this thought since I was obsessed with the fact that the two dual band devices worked flawlessly. Could ir be they are communicating by IR with the house? If this is the problem, is there anything I can do to help the situation?
MWareman Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure, but I think wireless devices will only relay to the wire, and from the wire to wireless. They don't relay wireless to wireless. Is this correct? So, the sensor send a wireless message, received by one KPL in the garage. The transmits on the wire in the garage. Its only received by the other KPL in the garage (due to the panel) and then sent wirelessly. We are at two hops (one hop left) with a wireless signal. Arriving in your house, let's say the signal is received on a device on the opposite phase as your PLM. Bang - no more hops left. Given KPLs are usually installed in grounded metal boxes, the range is extremely limited. Actual 'Range Extenders' may help - one in your garage panel, and one on each circuit in your house. Just a theory, and I could be fundamentally wrong. Michael. Edited October 15, 2014 by MWareman
PurdueGuy Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 I believe dual-band will relay on both, either direction. According to http://www.insteon.com/pdf/insteondetails.pdf, page 10, a dual-band device will repeat on both. Originator -> DeviceA -> DeviceB -> DeviceC -> PLM Assuming both DeviceA, DeviceB, DeviceC and PLM are dual-band: In this case: Originator -> DeviceA = RF only DeviceA -> DeviceB = RF and/or PowerLine DeviceB -> DeviceC = RF and/or PowerLine DeviceC -> PLM = RF and/or PowerLine
LeeG Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) The OP mentioned the garage devices were installed 2 years ago. If they are KPLs they are likely not Dual Band being 2 years old. Edited October 15, 2014 by LeeG
PurdueGuy Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 The original post said they were dual-band switchlincs. Perhaps there is some confusion on what is where.
smokegrub Posted October 16, 2014 Author Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Both of the devices in the garage are ToggleLincs (2466SW). I have these in numerous locations throughout the hous thinking they were dual band. Are they? Edited October 16, 2014 by smokegrub
Techman Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) The Togglelincs are not dual band. You should probably replace at least one of them in the garage with a dual band Switchlinc, or if you have an extra dual band on/off module or dual band Lamplinc you could plug either into an outlet and it will act as an access point. Edited October 16, 2014 by Techman
smokegrub Posted October 16, 2014 Author Posted October 16, 2014 I missed the fact that ToggleLincs are not dual band when I was making my initial selections of devices. I have, however, 6 KPLS (dual band) throughout the house. Should I install a dual band device in the garage, replacing one of the ToggleLincs currently there? That would place a dual band device less than 3 feet from the door sensor's desired installation location. It is all too easy for relative newbies such as myself to miss the fact that ToggleLincs are not dual band. I was under the misimpression that if it were an Insteon device, it was dual band. Live and learn. Fortunately the system in the house works beautifully with the mix of devices there now. I have a small place located about 325 miles from my primary residence, and it has only ToggleLincs and X-10s on an ISY994i . I want to place a door sensor in a detached building similarly situated. Thus, whatever solution evolves here will have to be applied there. I am going to buy the book "INSTEON: Smarthomes for Everyone". Hopefully, that will keep me from making so many mistakes in the future. I hope I can also continue to access the knowledge resident at this forum. I look forward to an answer to my question in the first paragraph above.
oberkc Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 If you have confirmed that you have communication across the legs of your electrical system, using the methods described in the user manual for the dual-band devices, then I would not worry about additional dual-band devices in the garage.
smokegrub Posted October 16, 2014 Author Posted October 16, 2014 I will have to check out that confirmation process and will report back.
stusviews Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Any dual-band device wired or plugged in near the sensor, including a Range Extender, should work. BTW, battery power devices are RF only. So is the INSTEON thermostat. Edited October 16, 2014 by stusviews
Techman Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 smokegrub it's always a good idea to have a dual band device located within close proximity of a RF only device in order to improve reliability of the RF device. Techman
Xathros Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 My recommendation would be to plug in an access point/range extender in the garage to provide the wireless Uplink to the powerling for the door sensor and any other wireless devices you decide to add in the garage. I have one in my garage to provide coverage for an open/close sensor, motion sensor and a remotelinc2. -Xathros
smokegrub Posted October 17, 2014 Author Posted October 17, 2014 Here is the summary of the situation I am dealing with. I have a two panel electrical system which use the same meter. Service from one panel is to the main house where there is a mixture of dual band and ToggleLincs. The second panel serves a detached garage where there are two ToggleLincs. The ToggleLincs in the garage are approximately 50 feet from the nearest dual band KPL and ToggleLinc in the house. I want to add a Hidden Door Sensor in the garage, but I have apparent signal stength issues and can only locate the sensor in a small space on the side of the door jamb nearest the house despite the fact that the proposed location of the sensor is less than 3 feet from the two ToggleLincs in the garage. I don't want to commit on the door sensor until I find out what I may be able to do to strenghen the signal it is receiving. I believe the ToggleLincs and Hidden Door Sensor in the garage are likely receiving their signal by RF from the house and not main line. If I am correct in my assumption, how can I get main line communication between the house and garage. I currently have 2 Access Points (2443) in the house. Would an access point in the garage bridge the two panels? Would I also need a dual band device in that location?
Xathros Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 The toggleincs are powerline only and are not sending/receiving rf at all. The Door sensor is apparently able to reach a dual band device at the main house under certain circumstances but not reliably. You need an dual band device in the garage to provide rf coverage for the door sensor. As above, I recommend an access point/range extender be installed in the garage. -Xathros
smokegrub Posted October 17, 2014 Author Posted October 17, 2014 Xathros: I will purchase and install an access point/range extender. Also, thanks for informing me that the ToggleLins are powerline only. I wish there were a table somewhere for the Insteon devices that summarized their basic features such as RF only, Power Line Only, Dual Band, etc. Thank you.
smokegrub Posted October 17, 2014 Author Posted October 17, 2014 Xathros: Which do you recommend? 2992-222 2443R
Xathros Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 Xathros: Which do you recommend? 2992-222 2443R Either should do the job just fine. I have the older access points. The range extender is a newer version. Not sure what to think about Smarthome refurb products as I have heard mixed reviews. If it were me, I would go with the Range extender. See this user supported/reported device list: http://www.madreporite.com/insteon/Insteon_device_list.htm It may give you what you need in terms of what each device actually does. -Xathros
smokegrub Posted October 17, 2014 Author Posted October 17, 2014 Just to confirm, that is the 2992-222, correct?
stusviews Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2992-222-range-extender.html
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