Controllers (Keypad and Switch) losing contact with Receiver (Switch)

[oberkc]

What is blinking green?  The device you used to initiate the test, or the responders?

 

What other dual-band devices do you have?  I, actually, don't see the four-tap method mentioned in the user manual for the switchlinc 2477D.  A blinking green LED suggests that it is linking mode as near I an tell on the user manual.  Is your PLM dual-band?

 

I would focus on confirmation that you have communication across the legs of your electrical system.  Identify your dual-band devices.  Find one that can perform the test, and confirm that you have another dual-band device responding appropriately (depends on model and era).  Once confirmed, we can deal with inability to find the device.  It is very possible that you cannot find a device because there is no communication between the electrical legs (or phases, if you prefer).

[rgn2000]

Yes the device to initiate a test which is SwitchLink 2477S dual band

 

My PLM is a 2413S so it is dual band

 

I have the PLM and 4 SwitchLink 2477S's installed (one of them is the one that isn't linking) and 2 are on each leg.

 

None of the SwitchLink 2477's can perform the 4 tap test.

 

I currently have a total of 12 SwitchLinks (4 dual band) and I had absolutely no issues with linking 11 of them to the ISY, and yes some are on different legs than the PLM.

 

Unfortunately I cannot confirm if the phases are coupled, and I have no idea how. Either way, I have always been able to link devices to the ISY.

 

I originally started this thread because I was having a problem with a scene that involved 2 SwithLinks on one leg and a KeyPad on the other. It's the first time I ever had a scene with devices from opposite legs. I suspect the phases aren't coupled so that's why I bought two more Dual Band SwitchLinks. Now one of them won't link, and the other is stuck with "resume brightness," but at least it linked.

[oberkc]

I would use the PLM to initiate the phase detection mode. Go to smarthome.com and find the quick start guide. Min the guide, find the section titled "Use PowerLinc Modem as a Phase Bridge". Follow those directions. Let us know the results.

[rgn2000]

I will as soon as a get a chance, but also interesting to note is the SwitchLink that won't link to the ISY happens to be on the same leg as the PLM. I don't have too many programs setup, but the few that I do have also happen to be on the same leg as the PLM. They run flawlessly. Why one earth would this particular SwitchLink not link being on the same leg? Especially when others on the opposite leg are found.

[oberkc]

I am certainly curious how you know they are on the same "leg"...and that others are not.

 

What is the load attached to the troublesome switch?

 

Sometimes it seems that there are enough performance variances between a given device that one may work and another not.

[LeeG]

Run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Attempt to add the SwitchLinc to the ISY and post the event trace. There are various reasons why the ISY would not accept the SwitchLinc. The event trace should help identify why.

 

Is this still being done with the 99i at 3.3.10?

 

The reason I ask is later KPLs will not add to 3.3.10 because Smarthome changed the information in the later KPL. Not sure about what has been done with the latest SwitchLinc.

[rgn2000]

Oberkc - Isn't every other breaker each leg? Breaker 1 - Leg 1, Breaker 3 - Leg 2, Breaker 5 - Leg 1, and so on?

[LeeG]

In a vertical column.....

 

Breaker 1 - leg 1

Breaker 2 - leg 2

Breaker 3 - leg 1

Breaker 4 - leg 2

Breaker 5 - leg 1

etc

 

They are structured this way so a double breaker in position 3 & 4 provides 240v.

[rgn2000]

LeeG, Yes, my breaker has two vertical columns. The left side ones are labeled 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, and so on and the right side is 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and so on.

 

So, going down the left side.....

 

Breaker labeled 1 - leg 1
Breaker labeled 3 - leg 2
Breaker labeled 5 - leg 1
Breaker labeled 7 - leg 2
Breaker labeled 9 - leg 1

[oberkc]

Oberkc - Isn't every other breaker each leg? Breaker 1 - Leg 1, Breaker 3 - Leg 2, Breaker 5 - Leg 1, and so on?

 

As LeeG described, there are only two "legs" (aka "Phases") in a house.  For these purposes, I would use the term "leg" and "phase" synonomously.  I tend to use "circuit" when talking about all devices on a given breaker. 

 

I started to suspect we were using terminology differently, so I am glad you cleared it up. 

[stusviews]

Info only: The split, single-phase electric supply has two legs (or sides). Only a three-phase supply, usually used in commercial and industrial applications has phases.

[larryllix]

The reason the two 120v legs, in a building, fed by a single-phase electrical grid distribution transformer, or not, cannot be connected together is because they are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, making them different phases.

 

Most people know them as "phases" because they are different phases. Usually the two phases are fed from a single phase transformer referring to the high voltage primary of the street distribution transformer but that is not the area of the electrical system being discussed here. The two phases in a residence may also be fed from two different phases on a high voltage grid system making them 120 degrees apart.

 

The constant injection of  cultural based terminology does nothing to further discussions and is only semantics. "Phase" is a commonly understood and accepted term for discussions, regardless of the high-voltage source, and requires no further clarification.  "Leg" or "side" require clarification or further context to understand what is being referred to. In the flow of this conversation either would be understood by others.

[rgn2000]

Okay, I was finally able to do the 4 step test using the PowerLinc Modem.

 

I have 4 other dual SwitchLinks (2 on the same leg as the modem and 2 on the opposite leg).

 

The ones on the opposite did nothing and the 2 on the same leg had flashing lights. One was flashing white and the other was flashing red. Incidentally, the one flashing red is the one that the ISY won't detect. 

 

Now in the instructions, it says......."If at least one of the dual-band device LEDs is blinking green or is bright solid white or blue, the device is on the opposite." Does this mean only the green color blinks and the others don't? Assuming it's solid white, that's what the 2 dual band SwitchLinks on the opposite legs were doing, but they looked the same as if the test wasn't conducted.

[rgn2000]

And now I was able to Run Tools > Diagnostics > Event Viewer at Level 3. I attempted to add the SwitchLink 2477D and here is the log.......

 

 

Tue 10/28/2014 10:43:17 PM : Start Insteon Device Linking Mode

 

Tue 10/28/2014 10:43:17 PM : [LNK-BGN     ] 02 64 01 00 06 

 

Tue 10/28/2014 10:43:23 PM : Stop Insteon Device Linking Mode, Final processing to follow

 

Tue 10/28/2014 10:43:23 PM : [LNK-END     ] 02 65 06 : : Unexpected, ignored (65)

 

 

And yes, I am still on the 99i at 3.3.10. Note: It had no problem picking up another dual band SwitchLink with the same REV of 7.5. 

[stusviews]

 

Most people know them as "phases" because they are different phases.

 

Most people refer to them as phases because that's the term most often misused. The split, single-phase electric supply is in no way on two or on different phases. Because the supply is alternating in polarity, the direction of the current flow in each of the opposite legs is always 180º out-of-phase, respectively.

 

But, the electric supply, that is the nearest transformer on a pole, is the closest connection for the INSTEON signal between the opposite sides of the secondary winding. A phase-coupler bridges those sides within the residence so the signal doesn't need to travel to the pole and back where it may not make it. Any 220/240V device in the home that's on accomplishes the same task.

 

BTW, the primary, or high voltage, side of the transformer is three phase. The current flowing in each of those phases is 120º out-of-phase with each other phase.

[rgn2000]

Any thoughts on my last two posts???

 

I also have another update - I just purchased 2 access points, and it appears I can't link them at all. The instructions say to plug one in and press the set button 4 times quickly and then plug in the 2nd access point. If the 2nd one stays on and is bright then I am all set. Unfortunately no matter where I put the 2nd one, it either flashes or it stays on constantly but isn't bright.

 

Any thoughts?

[stusviews]

After you tap the first AP rapidly, does it blink continuously?

[LeeG]

Access Points, now called Range Extenders, should blink Red when receiving the test message and on the same 120v leg.

 

If blinking Green the test message is being received with the Range Extender being on the opposite 120v leg.   If the second Range Extender is not blinking it is not receiving the bridge test message.  

[oberkc]

Make sure, also, to confirm your instructions match the device. Older "access points" (now range extenders) did not have red or green indicators. If your instructions describe "bright white", they are likely for the older versions.

[rgn2000]

Alright well that changed things. The units I bought were from eBay and although SmartHome branded, the packaging was different and the instructions were a copy of something that was either old or not official. However they are newer 2.0+ devices. So I went to the official instructions for the 2443 Access Points (Range Extenders) and looked up the instructions, and yes LeeG, blinking green is okay. So I can say that the 2 legs are bridged (4 tap test worked from both extenders) and it appears that the the original issue I posted about (the scene with the KeyPad from a different leg) is working fine now.

 

However, that leaves me with two issues still open..........

 

1) The new SwitchLink 2477D is still not recognized by the ISY. It's weird because it also happens to be on the same leg as the Modem, so even before I bridged the legs, I found it odd, not too mention SwithLinks on the opposite leg never had an issue anyway. With that said, could the unit be defective or do you really think it's because I am using an ISY99? It is a newer SwitchLink Rev 7.5, but I was able to successfully link another one (bought at the same time) with the same Rev 7.5, so it doesn't make sense.

 

2) Speaking of the other SwitchLink with a Rev 7.5 that I was able to successfully link, I still cannot seem to set "Fixed Brightness" on it. When I press the Set Button, the tone isn't right away. I have to hold it for a couple of seconds, but none of my other SwitchLinks are like that, even the other newer Rev 7.5 that isn't linking to the ISY. Could this unit be defective? Holding the Set button for those 2 seconds until I hear the beep is not setting "Fixed Brightness."

 

Thanks for all your help guys.

[LeeG]

I think the rev 7.5 (which is the device hardware level) that is not recognized has a device firmware level that 3.3.10 does not understand.  The device firmware level is displayed at the end of line 2 of the right side display. 

 

My rev 6.5 requires about 2 seconds of Set button press to set the mode that controls the On Level when the local paddle is pressed.  Why it will not come out of 'resume bright' mode I do not know.   Could be defective but I'm doubtful of that.

 

This thumbnail is of the rev 6.5 SwitchLinc which has a device firmware level of v.40

[oberkc]

1) what is the load connected to the switchlink? What other devices are plugged into the circuit that powers the PLM and switchlink? Yes, using the ISY-99 introduces the possibility that you are not compatible with some of the newer devices.

2) I have found that nearly all device configuration can be done throguh the ISY. What do you see when you select the device from the admin panel? Is there an option for device settings along the bottom of the admin panel?

[rgn2000]

LeeG - What do you mean? Right side of what display?

 

oberkc - I can't see the device in the admin panel. That is my problem.

 

Now one more thing to add to this that I am not sure was an issue before, but it is now. Whenever I turn this SwitchLink in question On or Off, it turns on or off one of my Kitchen lights (an older SwitchLink). However, it doesn't appear to be a respnder since if I turn off the kitchen light, it doesn't affect this particular SwitchLink. These SwitchLinks are not on the same breaker (nor are they on the same leg). I have no idea how they could be linked unless somehow I was pressing the set button on both devices testing something and it's a coincidence. I tried doing a factory reset on the SwitchLink that I cannot link and it's still linked. I never did a factory reset before but I assumed it worked. I pulled the Set button (it doesn't remove completely), and I did notice the power was gone. I did it for at least 5 seconds (more like 15 seconds), but it's still controlling that other switch. Bizarre.

[LeeG]

Look at the display clip in my previous post.   The right side of the display on line 1 says "SwitchLinc Dimmer DB", line 2 has the Insteon address with the device firmware level v.40 at the end of line 2.  This is the SwitchLinc with rev 6.5 hardware.

 

Now that the Access Points are coupling, links could be working now that were not working before. 

[LeeG]

Now that coupling is functional you can try Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer at LEVEL 3. Use New INSTEON Device, enter the Insteon address, Name of choice, Auto Discover, with Remove existing links. Post the event trace. The previous event trace had no device activity at all so it was not helpful.