Looking for some guidance

[cardician]

Hello all,

 

I'm jumping into the HA game and looking for some guidance. I apologize if I should not be posting this here. I've done a lot of reading and lurking on various HA forums and sites though and since I'm leaning towards an ISY and this community seems quite helpful/friendly I thought I'd give it a shot posting here.

 

First, ISY 994i or Pro? I want the most secure version so that I can access it over the internet and with smartphones. Obviously nothing that is accessible from the internet is 100% secure, hence most secure. I noticed on the product page that the Pro supports higher grade encryption. What are people's opinions? I know the basic can be upgraded into the Pro, but as I said, my decision there is entirely which is the most secure. I plan on adding an SSL cert and locking it down however else I can that still allows me access with my phone.

 

Second, more related to the serial PLM. This is my biggest hesitancy in going with INSTEON. Smarthomes own site is filled with negative reviews talking about how all the PLMs fail after two years. Are people still finding this to be the case? Are people noticing problems with other INSTEON gear? Should this not really be a big concern? I mean $60 - $80 every two years is not that bad in my opinion. I mean yeah, it's ridiculous something isn't done about this but every HA option seems to have some caveats. Also, I see some people out there on other forums saying INSTEON is dead and things like that. Any unbiased opinions here on why that would be and if there's truth to it?

 

Finally, can anyone provide a little guidance for someone getting into this for the first time? I'm a software developer by trade so I'm not worried about programming the ISY. In fact that's one reason why I'm leaning towards it. However, I don't know much about electricity and there are a number of INSTEON pieces of seen mentioned that I'm not sure if I need. I've seen mention of access points and bridges and other things that some people talk about using. What are the basics that I need to jump into this expensive game? I'm going to start small and eventually work up to making my house think for me.

 

Just some info incase it makes a difference. 4400 sq ft home over 3 stories. My main end goals are being able to use our phones to open/close the garage, have some cameras watching outside doors, and of course the other things one does with HA. First though I think I'll just start with a switch turning on/off some lights. I only mention the size of the house because I'm just not clear on what I'll need. Dual band INSTEON devices seem like the smart way as I don't know anything about my houses electricity. But I guess first I need to look behind some light switches and see if I have a neutral wire? Again, no idea what that really means.

 

So, anyone willing to throw some info at me? Anything would be appreciated. Sorry, I know this was a long post. Hey, if someone thinks I should take my questions elsewhere then I'd appreciat suggestion on that as well. Thanks for any and all help.

[stusviews]

You're unlikely to find an unbiased opinion on this or any forum. That said, there is no doubt that the Pro provides a greater level of security. Here's some reading about the ISY and security: http://www.universal-devices.com/docs/ISY994%20Series%20Network%20Security%20Guide.pdf

 

Regarding your difficulty involving electricity, briefly, electricity is provided to homes in North America as a split, single-phase electric supply. Specifically, the secondary of the power transformer (big gray object on power poles) is center tapped. The voltage between the opposite leg/sides of the transformer is 220/240VAC. The voltage between each leg and the center tap is 110/120VAC. The center tap is the neutral. The opposite legs are the lines.

 

All line voltage devices require one line and a neutral wire. If a device is switched, then only the line is interrupted, so a switch requires only a line wire and a switch return or load wire. The only way to tell is to remove, but not disconnect, the switch. If there are only two wires in the switch box (disregard any ground wire), then there is not a neutral wire. Not to worry, there is a workaround (except that it requires the purchase of two devices instead of only one). If there are more than two wires (again, disregarding any ground wire), then there may be a neutral wire present.

 

If you are comfortable changing a switch or ceiling fixture and can rewire a lamp, then you can install virtually any INSTEON device yourself.

 

Oh, the endorsement. I have more that 100 INSTEON device installed that control indoor and outdoor lighting, motorized gates, garage doors, HVAC, entertainment media, window coverings, cameras, phone and doorbell indicators, even more.

[cardician]

Thanks for the info. That was helpful regarding the electricity. I went ahead and checked after reading your post by unscrewing a switch and pulling it out so I could see for myself. My home is only about 14 years old and sure enough it seems to have a neutral wire. At least, there are three wires going into the switch as well as the copper ground. I guess the test would be to get some sort of ohmmeter and see if one of the wires has no charge? I'm not afraid of messing with my electrical as I've got enough sense to turn off the power and such. I just don't have a lot of knowledge about it. But I'm eager to learn and happy to play with things.

 

Also, what does having a neutral wire mean regarding what products I can get? This is one of my main problems with any HA products. I haven't seen it listed anywhere what I can buy and use thanks to having a neutral? 

 

Anyway, thanks so much for the help and the response. I appreciate it. 

[Teken]

The PLM issue is being addressed and some members indicate v2 hardware is in place along with updated firmware to address another unrelated matter. A neutral wire is required as Insteon devices obtain their power from that feed source. A neutral is the return path for voltage in your homes electrical system.

 

There are several things you need to keep in mind for any successful HA install.

 

1. Coupling / Bridging: This must be done and verified by the 4 tap beacon test outlined in the full users manual. This will ensure proper signal distribution with in the electrical system within your home.

 

2. Filtering: In your home are various noise makers / signal suckers. You will need to identify those noise sources to ensure the most reliable and consistent COM's.

 

3. Factory Resetting: All devices regardless of where you purchased them should be factory reset. This will ensure any testing features or capabilities are set to their default state. This will save a lot of hair on your head assuming you're not bald!  

 

4. Access Points / Range Extenders: This device will bridge your homes electrical system but also allows you to use RF only based devices such as remotes, motion sensors, leak sensors, etc.

 

They provide the most range and capability in re transmitting the Insteon signal. Since your home is so large installing AP in all four corners of the home will provide the most coverage.

 

5. Programming / Linking: You will always link and create scenes using the ISY. You must never link or create scenes manually as it will cause you endless headaches as the ISY is not aware of these links / association.

 

6. Install a few devices and play with them and learn how they work. If you're happy grow the system and move forward with more devices. Decide where you wish to install a KPL in place of a normal paddle switch. This will allow you the most flexibility, and remote notification of device states.

 

I would purchase the pro from the onset just because you would meet the security requirement from the start.

[stusviews]

As I indicated, every line powered (110/120VAC) item in you home requires one line wire and one neutral wire. That includes all lighting and appliances and electronics. (Some devices are 220/240VAC and don't need a neutral.) A standard switch is not powered, it's only a circuit interrupter. But HA switches are powered devices and, therefore, do need a neutral. (Some HA devices "steal" power from the load and don't need a neutral, but they're designed for incandescent loads only.)

 

You should get a mutlimeter for testing. Even the least expensive model will suffice. You may be doing some testing live. But you can connect the meter with the power off and read the meter after you turn power back on. And there's a bunch of tests that can be done without power.

[cardician]

Thanks Teken, for the info. Let me go through what you posted with a few more questions I have now have.

 

1. What user manual do you mean? The ISY manual? I haven't come across mention of this before and would like to check it out to ensure I understand it.

 

2. I have read about filtering and noise makers. How do you identify them and then what is a filter that you place on your line? I've read people talk about them but I don't know what they are, where to get one, or how to use one? Can you offer any more info?

 

3. Great advice thank you. And I'm balding quickly so certainly don't need to add to the loss.

 

4. I've been doing more reading and think I understand more about these. Is it guaranteed that you'll need one of these? Also I saw they're useful for bridging phases in your homes power. Do all homes have two phases that need to be bridged? I was looking at the Insteon site and my electric panel does look like the one in the picture. But I really have no idea what any of this is about.

 

5. Good to know. I sort of thought this might be the case.

 

6. Is the KPL the keypad with the buttons? Not sure if I have a need of one of those or the benefit of it. I plan to interact with the system entirely through my phone or an iPad.

 

Thanks for all the advice and help. I'm almost ready to jump in. Now it's just a matter of finding a regular ISY994i Pro. I don't need or want the IR module but I can't find just the PRO being sold anywhere by itself. May have to buy the regular model and upgrade it I guess.

[Teken]

Thanks Teken, for the info. Let me go through what you posted with a few more questions I have now have.

 

1. What user manual do you mean? The ISY manual? I haven't come across mention of this before and would like to check it out to ensure I understand it.

 

2. I have read about filtering and noise makers. How do you identify them and then what is a filter that you place on your line? I've read people talk about them but I don't know what they are, where to get one, or how to use one? Can you offer any more info?

 

3. Great advice thank you. And I'm balding quickly so certainly don't need to add to the loss.

 

4. I've been doing more reading and think I understand more about these. Is it guaranteed that you'll need one of these? Also I saw they're useful for bridging phases in your homes power. Do all homes have two phases that need to be bridged? I was looking at the Insteon site and my electric panel does look like the one in the picture. But I really have no idea what any of this is about.

 

5. Good to know. I sort of thought this might be the case.

 

6. Is the KPL the keypad with the buttons? Not sure if I have a need of one of those or the benefit of it. I plan to interact with the system entirely through my phone or an iPad.

 

Thanks for all the advice and help. I'm almost ready to jump in. Now it's just a matter of finding a regular ISY994i Pro. I don't need or want the IR module but I can't find just the PRO being sold anywhere by itself. May have to buy the regular model and upgrade it I guess.

 

1. Each Insteon device has a full and quick guide that explains how to complete and test for proper coupling / bridging. You can download a copy of the full manual from the SH site to understand how each device indicates same phase / opposite phase.

 

2. The Filter Linc:  http://www.smarthome.com/filterlinc-10-amp-plug-in-noise-filter.htmlis the device of choice for many to assist them in removing noise / signal suckers from the electrical outlets. There are typical devices in your home that are noise makers / signal suckers, but the reality is that anything electrical can generate such effects.

 

The most common are UPS, Cell Chargers, Computers, Baby Monitors, CFL, LED, motors, compressors, etc.

 

You have two basic methods to determine noise but it doesn't tell you if its a noise maker or a signal sucker. All you need to know is that it causes noise and you need a method to address it. From the global scale you can simply turn off circuit breakers to see if another Insteon device is operating better or not.

 

This is rarely the best method as you run into the chance of losing coupling / bridging and can obviously kill the power to the device requiring COM verification.

 

A better and more practical (yet painful) approach is to unplug all devices in the house and add them back one at a time and see the effects of doing so. Keep in mind this is needed only once so the pain is worth the gain in the long term.

 

4. Same with Filter Lincs, I always suggest a person have a few of the AP / Range Extenders on hand. They allow you to move and couple or extend the RF to power line COM's where ever you wish. Since the AP has now changed and based on very cursory review I would probably go with a dual use item instead.

 

Such as a plugin On / Off Module or Dimmer module, this enables you to not only couple but use that device to control a load if required. Where as the AP simply does one task and that is to couple and regenerate the Insteon signal no more.

 

Note: Technically you have a single phase system which has two electrical feeds. But most people use the term phase interchangeably in consumer forums. It (phrase) should never be used when speaking in a commercial sense since it no longer exists.

 

6. Yes the KPL is the 6 / 8 button key pad. You should consider areas where you feel will provide the most benefit / control / state notification. Keep in mind the beauty of Insteon is that once linked you can literally control a load in the home that is not physically attached.

 

Imagine you say: I wish that electrician installed a On / Off switch at the bottom of the stairs. Now you can have full control of that light, load, or appliance from just a simple KPL and know its current On / Off state. So, I would humbly suggest that you walk around your beautiful home speak with the wife and see what areas would benefit more control, awareness, or just another location to interact with the home.  

[stusviews]

1. http://www.universal-devices.com/docs/production/ISY%20User%20Guide%204.2.8.pdf

 

2. Devices that need filtering are usually not discovered until the filtering is needed.That is, you have some sort of communication failure.

 

4. Electricity is provided to homes in North America as a split, single-phase electric supply. The voltage between the opposite leg/sides of the transformer is 220/240VAC. Those legs are commonly, but incorrectly referred to as phases. For the most part, dual-band devices don't need Range Extenders, but if an RF only device is out of range, then a Range Extender is called for. They can even solve some communication difficulties. Again, there's no way to tell in advance.

 

6. How will anyone else control your INSTEON devices?

 

Some caveats: Don't plug-in or power any INSTEON device from a surge suppressor. Keep known noise makers on a separate circuit. Not all CFL and LED bulbs are equal. Some will behave badly when on an INSTEON dimmer.

[Teken]

 

Thanks for all the advice and help. I'm almost ready to jump in. Now it's just a matter of finding a regular ISY994i Pro. I don't need or want the IR module but I can't find just the PRO being sold anywhere by itself. May have to buy the regular model and upgrade it I guess.

 

You can certainly purchase just the base model and just upgrade via firmware to the Pro model. In the big picture it won't save you any money so I would humbly suggest you just purchase the pro and should you ever find the need for IR control / integration it will be there at the ready. 

 

Keep in mind you also have the capability when you're ready to also upgrade your Pro to integrate Z-Wave. This will allow you to have command and control of X10, Insteon, Z-wave all from one device.

 

If energy management is something you have considered or will be thinking about. The ISY Series Controller can also be upgraded to Zigbee. I have a ongoing installation thread that has tracked my efforts and many of the vendors that I use in my home which can be viewed here: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929

 

Its a very long thread so take a lazy Sunday and cup of your best coffee and enjoy the endless journey to make my home smarter, efficient, and safe.

 

All the while letting me play! 

[cardician]

6. How will anyone else control your INSTEON devices?

That is an excellent point. Really, for some reason it didn't even occur to me. I'll have to make sure to keep in mind that other people may need to turn lights on once in awhile.

 

Thanks to you both for all your suggestions and answers. I've truly learned quite a bit just from this little discussion and am now very excited to order my ISY and a few other pieces and dive into this wondrous and expensive world. 

[larryllix]

Many of us have just the basic model and no Access Points or Phase Bridges/couplers and our systems work fine even with our phones and other compute inputs. I do not know how the Pro would assist in any of those endeavours. It does provides more program and device counts. I have never needed that after a year of usage.

 

The Insteon system has evolved over the years to dual-band devices that can span the electrical system in a house by using RF communications and powerline and repeating signals in the modules themselves. This makes these signal only AP / Coupler type devices mostly redundant.

 

I would get your basic items and add AP and Couplers as the need arises, if it ever does.

[builderb]

That is an excellent point. Really, for some reason it didn't even occur to me. I'll have to make sure to keep in mind that other people may need to turn lights on once in awhile.

 

Thanks to you both for all your suggestions and answers. I've truly learned quite a bit just from this little discussion and am now very excited to order my ISY and a few other pieces and dive into this wondrous and expensive world. 

Fully biased opinion follows!

 

It's actually a PITA to use your phone to control things. That was actually my first HA mistake, discovered when I bought a set of Hue bulbs. Too slow to have to find the phone, launch an app, wait for the devices to load, then take an action every time you want to do something. Plus, if you don't have control of the switch, someone will helpfully turn it off for you at some point, and then whatever you're controlling stops working. I would also say that having all the switches controlled makes the HA system feel integrated with the house rather than feeling overlaid on top of the existing system. I suggest replacing as many switches as possible.

 

That said, I'm not a big fan of the wired-in outlet modules. I'd rather just use a plug in module most times. 

 

Regarding KPL utility, here's a "for instance": I have a 6-button one next to the front door. The main switch controls the outside light over the door, pretty standard. But I use one of the other buttons to control some exterior lighting, another to push on my way out the door to set the house to an away state so I'm not running around looking for lights that are on, and a third to turn on the core house lights upon arrival.

 

One note of caution for you though, the switch bodies are considerably larger than a traditional switch, and most homes are not built with the future in mind. Fitting everything back in may well be your biggest installation challenge.

 

And don't discount the utility of the RemoteLinks. I've got several taped to the wall with 3-M command strips where I don't feel like dealing with installing a switch. Yeah, you have to remember to charge them, but I just have a recurring alarm in my phone that reminds me. So far every three months has been working.