416to305 Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 Hey everyone this is more of an electrical question but I just had a quick question that I figured someone here would know. In my bathroom I have a keypad in there and there is a separate switch which is for the shower. I just have an Insteon LED bald in there currently as I had a spare. It's been nice having it come on at the same time as the main light and so on. Problem of course is that it is easy to accidentally turn the shower switch off and then of course the ISY cannot control it. Is it safe or possible to use a marette and just bundle the white and black that goes into that switch to gather and talked about behind the switch basically disabling the manual switch? That way the load is always on and it is controlled by the ISY etc? Or is that typically against code? Thanks! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stusviews Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 The Insteon bulb is actually meant to be powered on 24/7 and controlled by another device such as a SwitchLinc, Mini Remote, ISY, etc. Go for it
416to305 Posted January 3, 2015 Author Posted January 3, 2015 Perfect thanks, my Dad just said the same thing about it being okay. When I got into Insteon months ago for some reason I bought all the LED bulbs BestBuy had for $31 thinking it was some kind of huge deal but not really thinking how limited their use is lol. What I actually did with them all was get a hidden door sensor for my closet doors, and then bought a nice plug in light from Ikea the kind you can just screw to the wall, so installed that in each closet and ran an extension cord through the wall and under the baseboards, and then put an LED bulb in each of them as a scene with the hidden door sensor. Pretty inexpensive way to light the closets.
Teken Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 Perfect thanks, my Dad just said the same thing about it being okay. When I got into Insteon months ago for some reason I bought all the LED bulbs BestBuy had for $31 thinking it was some kind of huge deal but not really thinking how limited their use is lol. What I actually did with them all was get a hidden door sensor for my closet doors, and then bought a nice plug in light from Ikea the kind you can just screw to the wall, so installed that in each closet and ran an extension cord through the wall and under the baseboards, and then put an LED bulb in each of them as a scene with the hidden door sensor. Pretty inexpensive way to light the closets. The odds your closet solution poses a risk is highly unlikely. But, wanted to call out an extension cord is intended only for temporary use and not meant for a permanent installation which is against the CEC / NEC. Extension cords are also not in wall rated due to the fact the insulation must *breath* as part of their design to dissipate heat. Placing a ULc / UL cord into a confined area is against code and voids the ULc / UL intended heat rating. In the big picture and (reality check) this will probably never be an issue. But, you should understand the risk and the understanding that your home insurance is void in this case. You will not be covered by any sort of insurance due to the unapproved *Risk*
stusviews Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 Bulbs, even LED bulbs create heat. Fabric is flammable.
Teken Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 Bulbs, even LED bulbs create heat. Fabric is flammable. Stu, LOL . . . Yes, we are surrounded by risks all the time and most of us balance those potential risks all the time. But, in this case the OP needs to know if one day the cord for what ever reason over heats and melts causing a fire. If the insurance company identifies the root cause they will be more than happy to decline insurance coverage. These are things people do all the time but rarely take into consideration or plan for.
stusviews Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 I was supplementing, not supplanting your great advice. A difficulty is that many people are unaware of the risks.
Mike Ippolito Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Just want to be clear.. If you really meant together... You won't be very happy after bundling the neutral and hot. "Is it safe or possible to use a marette and just bundle the white and black that goes into that switch to gather and talked about behind the switch basically disabling the manual switch?" The line and load is what you meant - correct? Sorry for brevity - posted using mobile Tapatalk
stusviews Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Adding to Mike's comment, the usual configuration when there is only one white wire and one black wires connected to a standard switch is that white is line and black is load.
builderb Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 And a $10 voltage detector is an excellent investment! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
416to305 Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 I will probably remove it then and the extension cord as I sold about half of my Insteon gear this week after realizing what a waste of money it is for the most part, as most of it I have no use for. I put keypads all over the place and they are all literally empty trying to figure out a use for them. The one in the living room is an 8 x 10 one and only one button is used which is to control the lamp but even that I realized it was a waste of money because I have a lamp linc dimmer on the lamp in the living room literally doing nothing but being an expensive timer which I could accomplish with a wall timer from the dollar store. I also find the keypads are ugly now that I own them, I wanted them thinking it would look all high tech but it's really been the opposite that has happened, people asking why I have this old mechanical keypad on the wall and I'm like it's totally knew! Also they are really hard to control especially for visitors as a few times I've said turn that light on and have had to say no that button, no the top left one, see it says main? No not that one that one, etc. it's funny because a week ago at this time every single light switch in my house other than maybe three of them (18) were all switch lincs or kpls, and now I'm down to five in total. I just realized that it's stupid buying automation stuff just for the hell of it, as 90% of my network didn't need to be there like the garage, there is never a time that I could ever possibly think of that I would need to have the ISY control my garage door etc. anyway that's a whole other story. My problem with Insteon is that there's very little legitimate reasons at least for me for having it. Like I will say oh cool for $70 I can get a door sensor and a switch and have the bathroom fan come on automatically when the door closes! Then I will rush out and spend 3 x $70 for my 3 fans, but then I'm like who is that stupid and lazy that they can't turn on the fan themselves? It's never been a problem before, people always automatically turn the fan on because the switch is right beside the light switch. I'm sure for some people that would make sense but for me I end up looking around the house and thinking $210 is practically what it would cost to get hardwood in my bedroom, something that adds more value to my home and actually feels worth it to me. I'm not talking about wiring the neutral on this switch, I'm not that stupid LOL. There is a white and a black going to the switch and then a bundle of white neutral wires behind it. I connected the white and black from the switch to gather and it works as expected, confirmed with an electrician. Having an extension cord run along the baseboard might not be allowed, but having a light in your closet is, as every closet at my condo has a light built into it, it's just my house that doesn't. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
EricK Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Hobbies can be expensive. I already have a switchlinc in the pantry and should receive my second motion sensor tomorrow. I'll set it up so when you walk in the pantry, lights turn on. For me for about $75 that is worth while, and mirrors the laundry room set up, although I have a Kpl in there so it cost a bit more. Sure you could just hit the switch or an in wall motion sensor switch could be used but what fun would that be. Changing out switches, learning about wiring, and trying to figure out programming logic is all part of it. Sure there can be frustration but that probably is true of any hobby. Regarding the kpls, you need to use buttons with labels, either custom, ones from the 50button pack, or make your own. I like the way the kpls look, especially when combined with a screw less cover. If I had a room with lights and one lamp I would use a 6 button Kpl. Assign a secondary button for the lamp, one button for all off, maybe one for a scene with dimmed lights, and one left over. I think for any home lighting or automation system there is going to be limited to no ROI. Potentially it would be a net negative. So if you are looking for home improvements to increase your homes value, hardwoods are going to be a much better investment than some switches. I think you had posted about asking for and receiving light switches for Christmas. I read that out loud to my wife. When a package arrives here from smarthome I do get excited, my wife and children not so much. If you decide to ditch your gear you will not have any trouble unloading it. If you enjoy it, then stick with it, and grow your system slowly.
stusviews Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Anyone in our home, even a worker for the first time, has no difficulty knowing which button or paddle to push. That's because all 23 KeypadLincs have custom etched buttons. So do all the SwitchLincs. Having automation doesn't mean that you are lazy. When was the last time you walked to the TV to adjust the sound or change the channel? Was it the same day you got out of your car to lift the garage door? We love having a button near the bed that turns off all the house lights except those in the bedroom. Another button in the media room that tailors the lighting for viewing or snacking. A means of adjusting the HVAC from anywhere. Changing the living room lighting from reading to conversing from the sofa--either side. Even more
MustangChris04 Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Anyone in our home, even a worker for the first time, has no difficulty knowing which button or paddle to push. That's because all 23 KeypadLincs have custom etched buttons. So do all the SwitchLincs. Not to hijack the tread, but with your custom etched buttons, do they all match the same color? I haven't done the custom buttons yet, but I've purchased several of the "50 popular button set" and some buttons are a different shade of white than the others.
Teken Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Not to hijack the tread, but with your custom etched buttons, do they all match the same color? I haven't done the custom buttons yet, but I've purchased several of the "50 popular button set" and some buttons are a different shade of white than the others. Yes, its more than likely you will find some of the keys a different hue of white. You will also notice that some of the keys when back lit actually appear to be yellow opposed to white. This variation appears to be in different years of release. NOTE: The custom key font colors are a shade of grey where as the OEM keys are a shade of green. At close inspection you can tell right away but the casual user will not.
stusviews Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 All the buttons appear to match. I've even mixed sets that I've had etched.
EricK Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 The last set of custom buttons I received 2 weeks ago are not good. Almost appear to have a greenish hue to them, very noticeably different from the buttons from the 50button pack. They DIY buttons I replaced were actually better.
EricK Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 The dim button is from the 50 button pack. B is obviously the original B. TV POWER and the PLAY/PAUSE are two of the buttons I just received. All of the buttons are off in the photo. Thinking about asking for them to be remade.
Teken Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 What your showing is actually typical of what I have seen. The problem is when SH flip flops between the two plastic colors. There are actually three problems here. One is the OEM keys that come in the KPL. The other is the 25/50 set kits. The last is the custom keys. This also depends what year you purchased the sets from. I have four sets of the 50 kit and two are different then the other two. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
EricK Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 I have ordered custom buttons many times and have never seen such a disparity in the color. This is usually less noticble. Sometime the text is a little different. Here is a pic, if it posts, and the SPOT LIGHTS button is custom I believe. Compare it to the night and all off buttons and you can see the difference in the text. Color is a bit difficult to tell in this photo but is pretty good. This thread is officially hijacked. There is another thread on custom buttons with an unhappy customer.
stusviews Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Teken makes a good point. You cannot compare OEM buttons to kit buttons to custom etched buttons. All three are different which becomes most noticeable when they're on the same KeypadLinc. OTOH, the custom etched buttons have been consistent over the years I've ordered them, even if I switch them, which I have done.
Teken Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 The font looks super dark and bolded unless this is a photo issue. The one thing I do is ensure if a KPL is being customized I do the entire frame. Also order all at the same time. Experience has taught me this reduces variability. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Teken Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Teken makes a good point. You cannot compare OEM buttons to kit buttons to custom etched buttons. All three are different which becomes most noticeable when they're on the same KeypadLinc. OTOH, the custom etched buttons have been consistent over the years I've ordered them, even if I switch them, which I have done. NOTE: There are actually three distinct issues with respect to the keys. One is that the actual physical keys are either whiter or darker. The other is when the keys are back lit even when looking at the same outside color (it looks the same hue of white) when they are lit this is where you see whiter or yellow. The last issue is when you receive or have older KPL keys and the actual OEM green is slightly different. Most people would not notice this at first glance but anyone who is keen in photography or where visuals are important will notice right away. Regardless of all of the above using custom keys, along with the 25 / 50 pack is one of the best things you can do for that professional and custom look. Lots of people bag on Insteon (including myself when warranted) but they hands down have the best selection, looks, and feel of any HA device. UPB, Z-Wave, Lutron, all look and feel like complete aszz.
416to305 Posted January 5, 2015 Author Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Sorry for the delay! I actually went in the opposite direction and seem to have things better sorted out now. I think the problem is when you put a KPL somewhere as the main light, especially in a public area where it's not just family using it. For example my front door had a 2 gang decora switches there, so the left one is a normal switch for the outside light, and the right is the foyer light which I made a KPL. Over xmas my mom wanted to turn the light on so she walks over and just immediately flips the switch for the outside light not even looking at the KPL. When I was like no, press the top left button on the keypad, she did but she pushed it down for a second or two before releasing it, so it just started to make the lights brighten vs turn on, but at 5-10% during the day it looked off, so looked like she wasn't doing anything. So what I found was that for me what works best, is that a KPL always needs to be secondary if put with commonly used lights like kitchen etc, then if that's not possible, put it as secondary, so don't put it as the bathroom light, put it as the fan, etc. My other problem with them is that because they are expensive, I always feel like I need super important functions on them, vs just a virtual 3 way switch type thing, but at the end of the day, that's really what they are best for, put whatever you commonly use on it regardless of where the other switches are. What hit me was that I wanted to put under the counter lights in my kitchen, so instead I just bought Philips Hue with the 2 light strips and installed them super easily. Now with the network module the switch in my kitchen turns the main light on, then the KPL beside it turns dining room on/off, one button is for Hue 1, another for Hue 2, another button causes them to cycle through the colors etc. The Hue API is amazing, works SO well with the ISY. So for that I find it perfect, because any visitors can turn the kitchen light on with the switch, or the dining room switch on the other side of the room, and can ignore the KPL all together since they don't need the Hue lights on etc, so I find this approach is better since it caters to users of all ages and experience. My other main issue though was the damn buttons. In Canada aartech I believe is the only place to get them, and it's $40.99 plus $9.99 shipping and 13% HST for them, so $57.60 in total for just one pack! I really like things custom so I'd need at least 2 of them, plus some buttons I'd love to be graphics like play, pause etc. So I took a chance and actually bought the clear button pack even though I've seen negative reviews. The first thing is if you print the template from their website, it doesn't work as the buttons are more square on the PDF but they are really more tall rectangle, but easy to make your own. Using paper is AWFUL to the point I was going to return them as it looks super cheap. However I had some old photos sitting around, so I cut a few of them to the exact size, one each a different color, and put them in for fun. And I have to say, I really love them, they look fantastic when you use photo paper, as they look more solid, plus because the frame is clear, it looks like they are floating. Having each one a different color looks so cool as well as most were in a blue tint and my wall is yellow so actually looked really awesome. So now I'm going to keep those and use photo paper and make each button maybe a different color with white text or a white icon, make it look almost like Windows 8 live tiles lol. So I think this will help big time I'm hoping, since it's so easy to change them. Edited January 9, 2015 by 416to305
416to305 Posted January 11, 2015 Author Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Hi everyone, here's an example of what I am talking about on two of them. These are just quick, just to have labels on the buttons so I might change some colors and text, and the one is obviously not finished, I'm not going to keep the Hue lights here, that's why the one button looks a little bigger because I did it quick, just to test. But gives you an idea of what I'm doing, I think it looks better than the buttons that came with it.The one for Sonos Control will change, I will put actual icons on there, and it probably should be volume down and then volume up. I didn't realize I needed other hardware to change it from a 6 to 8 button keypad, but doing it like I did in the photo seems to work fine as you pretty much have to press the button directly in the center forget to trigger both buttons, otherwise there's no problem using the top and bottom as 2.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited January 23, 2015 by 416to305
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